f20c swap

[PR_TR]

harsh... lmao i jus learned sumthin new... but both u guys got a point but i rather go wit dis dud rather go wit hp over complexity

[clayton]

Originally Posted by PR_TR

harsh... lmao i jus learned sumthin new... but both u guys got a point but i rather go wit dis dud rather go wit hp over complexity

a type r is a nice little honda though..

[clayton]

Originally Posted by PR_TR

yea i lik tha mk3 supra...

fc3s = rx7.. right?

[PR_TR]

Originally Posted by clayton

fc3s = rx7.. right?

yea and im keepin the type-r been havin fun wit it tha past couple days but tha civic is gone

[RtypeAlpha]

Originally Posted by WVU97GS-R

i'm not missing any points. the hp/liter argument is just a lame selling point. and granted the vtec motors make alot of hp but they only look good on paper. yeah they make alot of power for their displacement but the run the same times as larger motors with less hp because of their powerband. and they are pretty much useless if the car has any decent weight to it.

i'll take a bigger motor with less hp that runs the same times and gets better mpg. the reason alot of other manufacturers don't try to make so much power in comparison to displacement is simply that they use bigger motors. it would be cheaper and easier to make 100 hp/liter with a 6cylinder or 8 cylinder but those cars would be making hundreds of hp not 190 flyhp.

so i guess what i'm saying. hp/liter is cool and all but says nothing for actual performance. it's not that turbo cars are a dime a dozen, it's that honda has so many features in their motors to make up for their weaknesses of displacement that it jacks up the price of their motors. it just means more shit to break.

i'm 22 so i know full well about the b16 popularity. or the fanboy's that still think it's a sweet motor because it has vtec. that motor isn't anything special at all. throw a b18b with the b16 tranny into the same car and you'll pull on b16's all day. b16 is only good in a car 2200 lbs or less. i could care less about the complexities of making n/a hp with a small motor when all it does is look good on paper and i have to strip out the interior of an already small car to run decent times.


I'm not cutting on you but i'd rather be fast with a real motor than slow with a "cool" complex one. i don't know how you guys do it though. you'll spend 700 dollars on a header to pick up 8 whp. i'm not even a v8 guys but when a 5.7 liter, 6.0, and 7,0 pushrod v8's make 2-3 x's the hp of these vtec motors, gain more from an I/M than the vtec motor does from full i/h/e combo and pulls better highway mpg than the vtec motor does. i'm not impressed at all. I'm not saying honda motors suck but they are not worth the the money thrown at them. Hence why i don't have a gsr anymore.

Yea, I figured you'd bring up the hp/liter argument is lame - but can you really say the same thing about the S54? Or is that excluded from ridicule by default since it's a BMW motor and a straight-six?

And as for the b16, I'm talking about when it's popularity peaked in the mid 90s. In terms of "fanboys" that still think it's a sweet motor - they're just as many that think the sr20 is god.

Look, the sr20 is a "small" motor. In terms of displacement, its no different from a b18 or an h22. If you want big hp #'s for cheap, then yea, turbo is the way to go, but like you said it all looks good on paper. Small displacement + turbo = not bad at all...in fact, real good performance. But what about actual performance?

I mean are you really gonna tell me a type-r or a civic with a b18c5 swap is not a shitload of fun to drive? Are you really gonna tell me a b18c making 200 at the wheels is not fun to drive? Yea, the powerband is huge, but as you clearly stated, that's how you make power n/a. It's a different way of making power and a different driving feel. We Honda heads like it.

And to say "it's that honda has so many features in their motors to make up for their weaknesses of displacement that it jacks up the price of their motors. it just means more shit to break" --> I can't help but just laugh doode. Who knew Honda motors were so prone to breakage?!

Look, I'm not trying to bash you either, and I'm sorry you didn't have a good time with your gsr, but there are plenty out there running high 12's n/a in street-trim, and more that are turbo'd putting down crazy times. But, I guess you're right - an sr20 is a "real" motor. I mean, a b18c turbo'd is junk right? Especially on the highway?

But anyway, you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. It's just that I still think you're missing the point about Honda motors, and the fact that it sounds like your bashing Honda (at times), yea, I had to respond. I'm sure you'd feel the same if some ls/vtec fanatic was slammin on sr20's.

[RtypeAlpha]

BTW, "it would be cheaper and easier to make 100 hp/liter with a 6cylinder or 8 cylinder but those cars would be making hundreds of hp not 190 flyhp."
is not true; at 100hp/liter you're basically looking at a high-performance motor, i.e. motors in cars like the GT3, M3, R8, F430. To make 100 hp/liter is not "cheaper" with a 6/8 cyl as compared to a 4 cyl, it's the other way around.

And "i'm not even a v8 guys but when a 5.7 liter, 6.0, and 7,0 pushrod v8's make 2-3 x's the hp of these vtec motors, gain more from an I/M than the vtec motor does from full i/h/e combo and pulls better highway mpg than the vtec motor does."
well duh man - more displacement = more hp (always, despite what some Honda kids will tell you). But pulling better highway mpg? How do you figure? Honda's are one of the most fuel-efficient cars out there...

[WVU97GS-R]

Originally Posted by RtypeAlpha

Yea, I figured you'd bring up the hp/liter argument is lame - but can you really say the same thing about the S54? Or is that excluded from ridicule by default since it's a BMW motor and a straight-six?

And as for the b16, I'm talking about when it's popularity peaked in the mid 90s. In terms of "fanboys" that still think it's a sweet motor - they're just as many that think the sr20 is god.

Look, the sr20 is a "small" motor. In terms of displacement, its no different from a b18 or an h22. If you want big hp #'s for cheap, then yea, turbo is the way to go, but like you said it all looks good on paper. Small displacement + turbo = not bad at all...in fact, real good performance. But what about actual performance?

I mean are you really gonna tell me a type-r or a civic with a b18c5 swap is not a shitload of fun to drive? Are you really gonna tell me a b18c making 200 at the wheels is not fun to drive? Yea, the powerband is huge, but as you clearly stated, that's how you make power n/a. It's a different way of making power and a different driving feel. We Honda heads like it.

And to say "it's that honda has so many features in their motors to make up for their weaknesses of displacement that it jacks up the price of their motors. it just means more shit to break" --> I can't help but just laugh doode. Who knew Honda motors were so prone to breakage?!

Look, I'm not trying to bash you either, and I'm sorry you didn't have a good time with your gsr, but there are plenty out there running high 12's n/a in street-trim, and more that are turbo'd putting down crazy times. But, I guess you're right - an sr20 is a "real" motor. I mean, a b18c turbo'd is junk right? Especially on the highway?

But anyway, you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. It's just that I still think you're missing the point about Honda motors, and the fact that it sounds like your bashing Honda (at times), yea, I had to respond. I'm sure you'd feel the same if some ls/vtec fanatic was slammin on sr20's.

you totally missed my point. and i said vtec motors are overrpriced. read an argument and comprehend it before you attempt to reply.

1.)who cares about people thinking the sr20 is god? it has nothing to do with this argument. the point is was why are honda motors so overpriced which they are. and they do only look good on paper. what does it have to do with anything? i said the vtec motors were overrated hence a b18b being able to spank a b16 granted they have the same tranny.


2. what does a bmw have to do with anything? hp/liter argument is gay with any car. it means nothing. if you make 100tq/liter then i'd be impressed. and why are you bringing sr20 displacement into the picture? the argument was for small displacement n/a. it was poor example of paper performance vs actual performance. what exactly were you attempting to show? what does my motor have to do with anything? where did i say you couldn't make power with a gsr motor? where did i say anything was special about my motor or that the b18 was crap? you're typical honda fanbody pulling shit out of his ass because he's upset that somebody told him that his 900 dollar header to net him 7 whp was a waste of money. are you impressed with n/a 12 second gs-r? tell me how much money would it take to make a full interior 12 second n/a gsr run twelves? and since you want to throw my motor into this. then you can look up how stock t28 sr's with tuning and injector upgrades are running mid-high 12's on stock motor/turbo with just injectors and mafs upgrades.


3. and what does 200 whp swapped civic have to do with anything? what are you even arguing against? any motor with 200 whp will be fast in a civic you're pulling random points out of your ass getting off topic. the question was why are they so expensive and the answer is they are full of overcomplicated parts to make up for it's weaknesses of 4cyl n/a. hp/liter has nothing to do with performance or winning races. it's a selling gimmick for nutsack riders, nothing more. and yes it would be easier to make 100 hp per liter with a bigger motor, that's the whole argument for displacement. it's the reason your're n/a 1.8 has to rev 4k rpms higher to make less power. and where did i say a type r wasn't fun to drive. i said the engine performance looks good on paper. have you never seen a b16/b18 dynograph before? peak hp at 7600 rpms plus peak (115wtq) at 6K rpms. oh wait but hp/liter means everythign in a race

4. where did i say honda motors were prone to breakage? i said there is so much shit on the motor that there is more stuff to break. you don't comprehend very well. why do you think pushrods are so poplular. the make big power with less mechanical bullshit on them. there is super sophisticated valvetrain, vtec solenoids to go bad, etc to replace when shit goes bad. like i said i didn't say that honda motors were bad just over priced. no reason a 197hp 4cyl swap should exceed the price of a 5.7 liter performance v8 swap.

5. i'm not honda bashing it's reality. you just brought my motor into this for no reason. you're telling me that you honda heads like having peaky as dynographs with tq/hp break-up at vtec engagment, 8,000 dollar motor swaps, $1200 on i/h/e combos that net you literally 15 whp, all because it makes 100hp/liter? then you put words into my mouth about turbo'd gsr's and type r swapped civics, all because i said your motor was overcomplicated and overpriced for the power it makes. when it costs 2x's a twin turbo 6 cylinder capable of 1000whp on the stock bottem end? that right there is a perfect example of what i'm saying. you getting defensive and reaching for weak arguments that have nothing to do with this debate aren't needed. and when i speak of on paper vs actual performance. i'm referring to yeah a b16 and b18 look good with their hp/liter. but when you look at their actual powerbands and the money your pay for them, they aren't worth it. who cares about 170 hp when you don't make it untill 7600 rpms. or your peak 128 lbs of tq at 6K+rpms. broad power is where it's at not peak numbers

Originally Posted by RtypeAlpha

BTW, "it would be cheaper and easier to make 100 hp/liter with a 6cylinder or 8 cylinder but those cars would be making hundreds of hp not 190 flyhp."
is not true; at 100hp/liter you're basically looking at a high-performance motor, i.e. motors in cars like the GT3, M3, R8, F430. To make 100 hp/liter is not "cheaper" with a 6/8 cyl as compared to a 4 cyl, it's the other way around.

And "i'm not even a v8 guys but when a 5.7 liter, 6.0, and 7,0 pushrod v8's make 2-3 x's the hp of these vtec motors, gain more from an I/M than the vtec motor does from full i/h/e combo and pulls better highway mpg than the vtec motor does."
well duh man - more displacement = more hp (always, despite what some Honda kids will tell you). But pulling better highway mpg? How do you figure? Honda's are one of the most fuel-efficient cars out there...

1. so you're telling me it's easier to make 250 n/a whp than it is to make 500whp with a 5.0 liter v8? please. last i checked it was cheaper to get 2 intake manifold for a v8 that net you 20-40+whp than a 700 hundred dollar mugen intake manifold tht nets you 7 whp. do you even know what pushrods gain form i/e and a cam? more than most n/a 4cyl gain from an off the shelf turbo kit.

2. you do realise that the camaro ss with 300+whp, zo6 with 430+whp, etc all pull in about 25-29mpg highway right? that's crusing at about 75-82 mph. performance hondas really aren't that fuel efficient, at highway speed. s2k's on average net the same if not worse mpg than a z06 does. to do 75-80 mph with a gsr you're crusing at around 4K rpms, even for a 1.8 liter you aren't being that efficient. and when you do your i/h/e combo on your honda and put even those stage one cams in that shit is no longer remotely efficient. the one advantage the v8's have over "vtec" is that they make crazy low-end torque which means you're cruising at almost half the rpms of that much smaller honda motor with a nice 6 spd overdrive. that's why a z06 pulls better highway mpg than an s2k. honda sohc vtec were the only motors that you could call really good on gas. the k-series is a little better with their variable cam timing and much better ems. now in the city yes the honda will get better mpg than the v8. but the most of those v8's use regular gas too which is a plus so it kinda even's out in todays world of absurd gas prices

[RtypeAlpha]

Maybe we're both missing each other's points because, well, we aren't speaking to each other in person and only reading each other's response. But let's get this straight: I never argued against your statement that the reason Honda motors are overpriced is due to supply and demand. Why? Because supply and demand IS the reason.

What I commented on was your basis that Honda motors are NOT special, and that people are willing to pay a premium for them. My point was, this is not the case - people pay a premium for them because they ARE special and if you don't buy it, the next guy will. Honda motors are unique in the motoring world, especially in the sub-30,000 price range.

As for bringing your sr20 into the conversation - get it straight, it wasn't me that brought it up first, it was you:

supply and demand. it's not honda motors are really all that special, it's that people are willing to pay that amount of money for them. it's economics. honda has really good marketing skills. so many people think that vtec is something special and unique to honda when it isn't but honda has made alot of people think it is. you could do an sr20det or 4g63 swap into a mid 90's civic for cheaper than a b18c5 swap and make much higher and more reliable hp for cheaper.

1jz-gte, rb25det, sr20det, ca18det, 4g63, 2jz-gte, rb26dett all cost less than a k motor and make more power cheaper. hell a b16swap will cost about as much as sr-swap for my car, and doesn't make anywhere near the hp/tq.

And while we're on it - are you serious? An sr20 or 4g63 swap into a mid-90s civic is cheaper than a b18c5 swap, plus it makes more hp and it's more reliable? Um, no, it's not cheaper, and depending on which sr20det or 4g63 we're talking about, if comparing apples to apples, power output is essentially the same.

As for the hp/liter argument, yea it IS lame, but so is your aforementioned tq/liter. I don't think I've ever heard ANYONE talk about tq/liter to infer an engine's performance capabilities.

If we want to be serious here, an engine with lots of torque (and less hp) generally has a broad power curve and a low rev range, whereas an engine with lots of hp (and less torque) generally has a narrow power curve and a high rev range, but that's where gearing comes into play and with that, no matter how a motor makes it's power, in terms of performance, they are essentially equal.

What's really a true indication of performance is the power/weight ratio, and there you're correct about a b16 being only good in a low weight car, but is that a discredit to the b16? All things being equal, a car with a b18b mated to a b16 tranny will NOT beat a b16 equipped car. The b18b makes less power and the b16 tranny is not suited to a b18b's powercurve.

You talk about me pulling random points out of my ass? No man, it's you. Vtec solenoids going bad? They rarely do, but if that's your justification... And just a heads-up, yea, 75-80mph in a gsr IS fuel efficient - ask anyone and they'll tell you 28-30mpg easy.

I can go on and on and point out your bogus statements, etc. but the bottom line is, you basically discredited Honda motors in explaining why they're overpriced and compare it to your sr20 - to me it sounds like Honda bashing. What's more, you state you're not impressed with Honda motors, yet still stick around on a Honda forum. Hilarious. I'll give you this though: at least you sound like you know half of what you're saying <3 (unlike most people)

[MQTGSR]

I mean the GSR could be more fuel efficient, but its all in the gearing. I can still get 30+mpg in the teg at 3.5k rpm at 70mph or so with I/H/E and i kinda drive like an ass and lay into the throttle a decent bit here and there, and my GSR has 187k on it.

I guarantee no matter what you do the GSR will be more efficient than any v8 regardless. Not saying that camero/vette mileage is bad, its pretty good for the reasons you describe, they turnover at far less speed, big lazy power basically. But I have never seen a v8 car have better mileage than a 4cyl, unless its heavily boosted or crazy N/a built.

There cool little motors, but as you do say, overpriced, I totally agree.

In all honesty, the real weak area of honda motors is powerband and torque. Everything else about them is great. There reliable, efficient, somewhat powerful and have a very advanced design (for the b18c1 being 15 years old if not older)

The v8's have there advantages, but so do the 4cyls, you cant overlook there advantages, especially in the world of ever increasing gas prices.

[WVU97GS-R]

1. i said honda motors aren't special for what you pay for them. they are overpriced. i didn't say they suck i said you dont' get what you pay for them. the k20 is nice but look how much a swap costs for it.....upwards of 7.5grand and you haven't even started modding it yet. they are cool for the power they make with their displacement but that doesn't win races, it just looks good on paper. the ecotec cavalier doesn't have anything like that going on. has 140hp and 155tq out of a 2.2 liter yet runs a faster 1/4 mile time than an em1 b16 si which makes 160hp etc.

2. an sr20 or 4g swap wouldn't be that hard into an early 90's civic. both motors are fwd and yes they will make more power cheaper more reliably wich a much broader powerband. both the previously stated motors can be had for around 2grand while a b18c5 swap is easily 4 grand plus. the prices would even out actually. there is a swap on the forum right now actually.



3. i used an sr20 in that post along with a 4g63 expressing their cheapness in comparison to a vtec motor. you percieved to say how i thought the sr20 was super duper cool etc etc. i never said that. i said that the two motors will make more power more reliably for cheaper. i used about 4 other motors in the same post yet you singled the sr20 out for no reason.

4. haha the tq/liter was to show you how lame the hp/liter argument is. anybody can make 100hp/liter n/a lets see a honda make 100/tq per liter n/a. it wasn't dumb, it was an example. 100hp/liter is just as pointless which is one of your original sellign points about why honda motors are so cool. you previously stated that it was an important reason as to why they perform so well yet now you come back and that it means nothing?

5. gearing is important yes, honda rely on tq multiplication to accellerate since they don't have any tq and bigger motors that can't rev as well use longer gears etc. but gearing only gets you so far. but motors are only equal within reason. even with gearing the bigger performance motor has more potential. with the same money invested. truth be told the only thing that truly limits performance is your wallet.

6. in regards to the b18b vs b16. i was talking accelleration. if we are talkign road racing then the b16 will win. if you're talkign drag racing or around town the b18b will win granted they are in the same weight car with same tranny. when you start modding them the only advantage the b16 has is a better flowing head. the b18b makes more torque sooner and holds it for longer. the 20 extra ponies the b16 has don't really equate to anything when talking accelling vs the b18b. look at it's powerband.

7. i'm not pullign stuff out of my ass. it was an example that one problem with having a really complex motor is that also means more stuff to go wrong. less moving parts to make the same power is always better. i'm not saying that hondas are unreliable. i tried to explain that too you earlier. hence my example of why pushrods are so popular and cheaper yet they make more power.

8. 80 mph in a gsr pulling 30 mpg stock? doubt it. i've owned 2 gsr's and neither one of them pull 30mpg cruising at 80 mph. that's without neutral coasts downhill. in all honesty the average gsr pulls about abotu 26-27mpg going that fast, 80 mph in a gsr is 4Krpms+ the only way i ever pulled 30mpg in a gsr leaving it in gear the whole time was going about 60-65.

9. yet again you put words in my mouth saying i'm discrediting honda with my motor. i simply showed about 5-6 other motors that out perform honda performance motors cost much less. a k20 is a nice ass motor, and responds well to mods but it isn't worth the money it costs to swap one. it's not honda bashing it's a wake up call that outisde of the honda world you're motors aren't that impressive. i never said the sr20 was awesome either. there are motors that easily outperform my motor for cheaper, but my car came with an sr20 professionally swapped and the car was only 4500 dollars, with a built bottem end and suspension goodies already in place.

10. I'm not bashing hondas, truth be told i love them and i wish i still had my gsr. but parts for them are over priced for the gains you get. i spend 125 dollars for an exhaust manifold and pick up 15whp on my current car vs spending 700 dollars for a header on a gsr and picking up 7-10whp. 4g63's can be had for about the price of a b16 and built much cheaper and go much faster. i could care less about having a high redline if my powerband is only 1600rpms and i dont' make any decent power till 6K rpms. so the only way to really make the car any better without ripping into the block and doing extensive mods that will soon leave the car unstreetable is to strip the car and not even have it comfortable to drive in anymore. the original question is why are honda motors so expensive, and if you look at their actual performance numbers on their motors the numbers are impressive for their size and nothing more. is it fun to drive a b18c swapped civic hatch? yes it is, are their cheaper easier ways to go about making that hatch faster without destroying yoru pockets for a dohc vtec swap? yes their are.

[WVU97GS-R]

Originally Posted by MQTGSR

I mean the GSR could be more fuel efficient, but its all in the gearing. I can still get 30+mpg in the teg at 3.5k rpm at 70mph or so with I/H/E and i kinda drive like an ass and lay into the throttle a decent bit here and there, and my GSR has 187k on it.

I guarantee no matter what you do the GSR will be more efficient than any v8 regardless. Not saying that camero/vette mileage is bad, its pretty good for the reasons you describe, they turnover at far less speed, big lazy power basically. But I have never seen a v8 car have better mileage than a 4cyl, unless its heavily boosted or crazy N/a built.

There cool little motors, but as you do say, overpriced, I totally agree.

In all honesty, the real weak area of honda motors is powerband and torque. Everything else about them is great. There reliable, efficient, somewhat powerful and have a very advanced design (for the b18c1 being 15 years old if not older)

The v8's have there advantages, but so do the 4cyls, you cant overlook there advantages, especially in the world of ever increasing gas prices.

actually the f-body's do pull in pretty crazy mpg regardless of their d