Korbach frame locks

[AznDude]

So I just got these from a group buy from www.korbachperformance.com last week and finally got a chance to put them on today. Like anyone who has seen or heard of this product, I was skeptical of how a couple pieces of metal and bolts can improve your ride. But the group buy price was good and risk-free guarantee was enought to push me to get them.

Installation was a breeze after the first one was placed on. The package,layout, and instructions were top notch. Everything was well organized and straight forward.

Now for the ride review: It's true that it does stiffen the front and makes the steering more responsive. Body roll on cornering was eliminated for the most part. But not the night and day difference I've heard people say. If you have adjustable shocks, play around with the settings because I felt some understeer at higher speed turns. Tweaked the shock settings and I think I've elminated the understeer for the most part.

Conclustion: Try it out since it is risk free and money back if you dont like it. Only downside is the price w/o a group buy involved. But this is a good complement for those suspension junkies looking for another thing to add or for just a curious person like myself. I give it

[scottigee]

I've never heard of these...and I can't see what they do or how they help...
Do you have pictures of them on your car?
I'm sceptical.


Plus it's not like body roll is really all that much of a problem anyway....

[AznDude]

Wished I took some pics when I was putting them on. I just wanted to put them on quickly and go try them out. Nothing wrong w/ being skeptical, i was. I'm just posting my thoughts on the product. If you want more reviews, check out other honda forums, they got quite a few.

[gmusquiz]

I've seen these on a lot of websites, but it always seems like the reviews are just too good, you know what I mean. The price is kind of steep also. Also, since they are supposed to stiffen up the subframe, would these have any kind of negative effects if you were to get into an accident (like do they diminish the crumple zone or anything)? Well, you probably can't answer that, but that is something I'm be curious about.

[kommon_sense]

Originally Posted by gmusquiz

would these have any kind of negative effects if you were to get into an accident (like do they diminish the crumple zone or anything)? Well, you probably can't answer that, but that is something I'm be curious about.

these frame locks completely eliminate your crumple zone.

frame locks = good for performance, terrible for safety...

Read the legal disclaimer on the bottom of the page... its the tiny almost unnoticeable link says :

Originally Posted by korbach legal disclaimer

6) Any structural alterations to a vehicle such as chassis bars, H braces, traction bars, tie bars, strut bars, and Frame Locks may result in the following:

a) Voided manufacturer’s warranty resulting in purchaser’s sole responsibility for the cost of, and possible increase in cost of, vehicle repair in the event of a collision.
b) Adversely effected crash performance of the car resulting in an increase of force exerted to the driver and occupants, which may result in an increased risk of injury or the likelihood of fatality to driver, passengers, and/or bystanders, in the event of an accident.
c) Deployment of air bags in conditions not originally intended by the manufacturer, resulting in loss of vehicle control, increasing the possibility of property damage, injury, or death to the driver, passengers, and/or bystanders.

[Solid_Ride]

Originally Posted by kommon_sense

these frame locks completely eliminate your crumple zone.

frame locks = good for performance, terrible for safety...

Read the legal disclaimer on the bottom of the page... its the tiny almost unnoticeable link says :

Thanks for the feed back.

The legal disclaimer is front and center and one can not buy without reading it. They are legal disclaimers that are not inconsistent to any other after market company. Read Comptechs for example or brake manufacturers. Our pair of 13 ounce, 7" long braces do not eliminate the crumple zone. Below is an explanation. In fact other product such as traction bars, underneath X braces and the Megan H brace are far more stiffer.


Theoretically, anytime the positioning, mass or fore/aft stiffness is altered in a vehicle, the crash performance will be altered. Whether it is significant is another matter. A vehicle is designed to have a certain degree of crush in a frontal impact. This absorbs the impact of the collision and reduces the forces transferred to the occupants. However, the front structure can not be too “soft” in the front as to allow engine intrusion at higher speeds. The intrusion into the passenger compartment can also cause injuries. So it is a balanced design. The front end should be crumple, but not too much or too easily. Stiffening the fore aft structure will improve intrusion at a sacrifice of front end crush. The best performance for frontal impact comes from a design where the front end is long. This allows plenty of distance for crush and intrusion. That being stated, larger cars will perform better than compact cars. The Frame Locks are very small in comparison to the stiffness of the front frame and the suspension cradle. This is very intuitive. The front frame is made up of 2 closed section boxed in rails. The suspension cradle is a thick gauge steel structure mig welded together. In contrast, each Frame Lock weighs in at 13 ounces (not including the nuts and bolts which are attachment points) and are about 7” long. The crush distance of a vehicle is about 48” long. The Frame Locks are designed to significantly increase front lateral (side to side) stiffness not fore aft stiffness. You will note that is it not made from a square tubular structure. That is because a closed structure such as a tube will not buckle or crush as easily as an open structure. The Frame Locks is an open structure made up of a ‘U’ section which allows buckling more readily. In addition, you will note an elongated triangular cut at the corner in the middle of the top and bottom plane of the front brace. This also is there to allow for ease of buckling by allowing the top planes to separate from the side plane of the brace. Corners do not buckle as easily. Also, there is a pattern of 3 small triangles on the top and bottom plane of the Frame Lock. This is patented and is proprietary and specifically there for optimized crash performance. It is called the progressive crush impulse dampening (PCID) hole pattern.

Increasing the fore aft stiffness of the front end structure can also affect when the air bag is deployed. If it is stiffer, the acceleration pulse transferred to the accelerometer or air bag sensor will be sharper which could mean the air bag deploying at lower speeds. However, the degree of stiffness added by our small parts will result proportionally in the speed at which the air bag deploys. We think this is small and did not believe necessary to test for an after market part. However, we did have one individual with Frame Locks added to his car that had a low speed crash in his car and the air bag did not go off. Air bags are designed to deploy between 25 – 35 mph. Each car manufacturer has their own strategy as to when they want air bags to deploy. Judging by the damage to his car, I would guess his speed at impact was probably 10 – 15 mph. His hood bent up and his glass was shattered

The one area that we wanted to confirm was to be sure that the air bag would not falsely deploy when driven over a pot hole. Although the geometry of the part would clearly imply that this would not be possible, we wanted to confirm by testing a vehicle. The Frame Locks are forward of the suspension and we believed that a suspension load should not transfer the impact to the sensor (located under the radio) more readily due to the increased stiffness forward of the wheel. If the stiffness were increased rearward of the wheel, it could change the acceleration response. At any rate, we consulted with a seasoned air bag sensor development engineer and he outlined a test procedure which involved driving over a pot hole with and without the Frame Locks engaged. And to measure the fore aft acceleration at the air bag sensor location. We did this and presented the results and he concluded that it is not significant. With the Frame Locks engaged, the acceleration increased by 3 %. This could be test variation since it is difficult to control the speed precisely and the exact spot to hit on the pot hole. We noted an acceleration peak of 3.5 g’s over a time span of 4 milliseconds. According to our consultant an air bag will not deploy unless it observes a 12-15 g acceleration of 12 – 15 milliseconds. So we determined that the levels of acceleration we measured were not even remotely close to firing off an air bag.

The crash standards that OEM’s follow are very specific as mandated by the government. So they are very keen on passing on these strict criteria. Any chances of altering the dynamics of the crash is tested and validated. They do this because if they miss the standard by even a small percentage, they can not sell the cars. Real world crash scenarios are much different from the crash standards followed by the OEM’s. For example, there is no standard for on offset frontal crash where the front half corner impacts an object. This is very likely to occur if a driver crossed center of a lane and crashes the front corner of his car to another car. Also there are many other real world variations that affect crash performance such as whether the vehicle hits a Hummer, a Neon or a concrete structure. Also angle of hit weighs in as well. In addition, the crash performance going at the speed of 35 mph is very much different than a speed of 40 mph. In the end, the most important factor in insuring occupant safety is for all passengers to wear seat belts so that they do not impact the interior (IP or steering wheel) of the car. Wearing seat belts is the best measure to assure safety.

Thanks

David Lawson
Korbach Performance

[Solid_Ride]

Originally Posted by scottigee

I've never heard of these...and I can't see what they do or how they help...
Do you have pictures of them on your car?
I'm sceptical.


Plus it's not like body roll is really all that much of a problem anyway....

Take a look at our web site korbachperformance.com

Do a search on Google under Korbach Performance and you will see all postive reviews. We offer a risk free purchase and we have not had one return.

Here's some links to check out including the front cover of Honda Tuning magazine:

Below are some links about our Frame Locks:

> Korbach Performance’s Frame Locks makes the front cover of the September issue of Honda Tuning magazine: “The best handling upgrade you don’t know about”. Link is:

http://hondatuningmagazine.com/tech/0409ht_honda/

> Product reviews from the co founder, moderators, racers and members of a popular car enthusiast club (Clubsi.com)

http://forums.clubsi.com/showflat.ph...b=5&o=&fpart=1

> Product review from the founder and web master of a car enthusiast club (Speed-society.com)

http://www.speed-society.com/forum/p...ch_framelocks/

> Product review from a member (Team 4 R) of a popular car enthusiast club (*********.com).

http://www.*********.com/board/showt...hlight=korbach

> Product review (Nate) from a Honda swap web site (Hondaswap.com)
http://www.hondaswap.com/forums/inde...howtopic=45556


Thanks

David Lawson
Korbach Performance

[gmusquiz]

Wow, I am really impressed at all of the research that Korbach has conducted and that you actually go around and make sure your product is being seen for what it is. I commend you on this. Although, for the price this "13 ounce" product may have to take a backseat for me for a while. I have never seen a bad review (except on price) and I seem to stumble on to these reviews quite often from various sources. Thank you for all of your information.

[kommon_sense]

Originally Posted by Solid_Ride

Thanks for the feed back.

The legal disclaimer is front and center and one can not buy without reading it. They are legal disclaimers that are not inconsistent to any other after market company. Read Comptechs for example or brake manufacturers. Our pair of 13 ounce, 7" long braces do not eliminate the crumple zone. Below is an explanation. In fact other product such as traction bars, underneath X braces and the Megan H brace are far more stiffer.

[snip...]

Thanks

David Lawson
Korbach Performance

Thats all well and good, but I'll take it with a grain of salt until I see some crash data. A pic/video of a civic in a low speed head on collision with korbach frame locks could easily address everyone's concerns. You have posted a number of links to people saying how well they "perform." I've seen just as many threads on the net where people were concerned with their "safety..."

[Solid_Ride]

Originally Posted by kommon_sense

Thats all well and good, but I'll take it with a grain of salt until I see some crash data. A pic/video of a civic in a low speed head on collision with korbach frame locks could easily address everyone's concerns. You have posted a number of links to people saying how well they "perform." I've seen just as many threads on the net where people were concerned with their "safety..."

In a frontal crash, the engine drops down, the hood crumples up and the front longitudanal rails rear up and back. It takes quite a bit of energy to do those things. The Frame Locks are part of the equation of course, but the relative stiffness that it adds is comparitively very small as we assert. If you look at the photo of the dimunitive part, we think it is obvious, but perhaps it is not mechanically intuitive to everyone. You may be right. We are mechanically inclined engineers and perhaps we take that for granted.

Actually stiffer bumper attachments is nothing new. The Corvette has a very nice attachment as well as many high end European cars. The Civic is simply not in that price range for the manufacturer to consider spending more money to do this.

We did not test for crash because it does not merit that kind of testing in our opinion. We did however test for false air bag deployment and drove over pot holes and measured responses with and without the Frame Locks installed. We stand behind the data in part due to ethical and moral reasons, but also for financial reasons. Product liability is very serious business. Our disclaimers are consistent with that of the industry.

Thank you for your opinion. Most after market companies do not take their products to car club website dialogue for fear of negative postings whether they are founded or not. I can understand why they avoid this now. Consultants actally discouraged us from doing this. We are attempting to make a direct connection with our customers and have been open to whatever that may bring. Perhaps this is not the best way to market a product. Conventional marketing is advertising, exposure and publicity.

David Lawson
Korbach Performance

[fsufan814]

Originally Posted by Solid_Ride

In a frontal crash, the engine drops down, the hood crumples up and the front longitudanal rails rear up and back. It takes quite a bit of energy to do those things. The Frame Locks are part of the equation of course, but the relative stiffness that it adds is comparitively very small as we assert. If you look at the photo of the dimunitive part, we think it is obvious, but perhaps it is not mechanically intuitive to everyone. You may be right. We are mechanically inclined engineers and perhaps we take that for granted.

Actually stiffer bumper attachments is nothing new. The Corvette has a very nice attachment as well as many high end European cars. The Civic is simply not in that price range for the manufacturer to consider spending more money to do this.

We did not test for crash because it does not merit that kind of testing in our opinion. We did however test for false air bag deployment and drove over pot holes and measured responses with and without the Frame Locks installed. We stand behind the data in part due to ethical and moral reasons, but also for financial reasons. Product liability is very serious business. Our disclaimers are consistent with that of the industry.

Thank you for your opinion. Most after market companies do not take their products to car club website dialogue for fear of negative postings whether they are founded or not. I can understand why they avoid this now. Consultants actally discouraged us from doing this. We are attempting to make a direct connection with our customers and have been open to whatever that may bring. Perhaps this is not the best way to market a product. Conventional marketing is advertising, exposure and publicity.

David Lawson
Korbach Performance

thank you for all your responses and ability to field questions and doubts of others, this has been very informative and i think that people will begin to understand the capabiliities that there is in your system as soon as there are more of them out there and being used.

if you need a test dummy give me a call, i would be glad to do so

Thank you,
Eric

[00integrals]

If you need to field test some on a 00 Integra, feel free to ask me.

[lurice0]

The Korbach Permormance web site is not taking my order. They do not respond to emails. The phone number does not work. The fax machine does not work. The letters I send to them get sent back. CAN SOMEBODY PLEASE HELP ME? I need frame locks for my 95 Honda Civic EX NOW!!

[gzuckier@alum.m]

yeah, i tried to get hold of them a while back and the didn't answer my calls; now apparently the phone humber doesn't work. their website hasn't been updated since 2006. too damn bad. another good idea sunk.

[lurice0]

They have to come back sooner or later. I will keep trying forever. Please post any new info anybody please.