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Old 08-15-2005, 07:53 AM   #1 (permalink)
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this is why 13:1 is possible on the street.

i hate linking to other boards but i feel this is information that people should have. its time to open your minds and forget what you know.

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Old 08-15-2005, 09:49 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Unfortunately not many piston manufacturers follow this methodology.
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Old 08-15-2005, 04:05 PM   #3 (permalink)
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thats for sure thats why i use the rollerwaves in my engine, but if you look at that importbuilders.com siteit seems that he has ripped off endyns design so people are learning.
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Old 08-16-2005, 12:39 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yes you can run 13:0:1 on maybe 94+ octane on the street, but high compression engines like that don't like to start when its cold, and if you have ignition timing too far adavanced you will have detonation. Also, if you want to do it go for it, I really don't care but there are more important factors in building an engine than the amount of compression you run.
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Old 08-16-2005, 01:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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did you even read the whole thing? it had all the support systems like cams and such. he actully stated that they could retard the timing and get lower egt's and the same power. its about burn quality. my car starts fine in -20 celcius weather. he runs 13.5:1 on 92 so whats your point? read everything before making silly statements or didnt you understand what he was saying?
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Old 08-16-2005, 01:52 PM   #6 (permalink)
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did you even read the whole thing? it had all the support systems like cams and such. he actully stated that they could retard the timing and get lower egt's and the same power. its about burn quality. my car starts fine in -20 celcius weather. he runs 13.5:1 on 92 so whats your point? read everything before making silly statements or didnt you understand what he was saying?
No where in that entire article did it sa;y he ran 13:5:1 on 92 octane. also these are all of the main things that I thought were important enough to list. Also he said static compression ratio's. Point is clearly that you don't need the highest compression in the world to make power in a STREET CAR.

I suspect that about now some readers are wondering how to eliminate the intake valve relief in the piston of a performance-oriented engine. It requires some rather special camshaft design with little or no valve opening during the "normal" overlap cycle. We’ll discuss this aspect when we get to the "support systems" which relate to cam design.

So we want to mechanically force the mixture to the exhaust side, ignite, and briefly confine it for complete combustion.

To make this particular concept even more efficient, we can shape the piston dome and quench pads to force the mixture to swirl into the preferred portion of the chamber, creating swirl combustion. As the inlet port will induce a swirling mixture to the cylinder which is rotating due to inertia, the proper piston to chamber shapes can effectively reaccelerate the swirling charge, while ever confining it to our exhaust side "sweet spot" for ignition and initial burn propagation.

If the combustion process is quick and complete, there will be very little burning when the exhaust valve opens, and the exhaust gas temperature will be very low. A quick burn also permits us to use less ignition timing advance to complete the combustion cycle and, therefore, the engine is doing less "negative" work since we’re not trying to compress as much ignited and rapidly expanding mixture. Unfortunately we can’t light the mixture at TDC and still complete the burn by BDC (with gasoline), but we can run only 5 - 15 degrees advance and create a thorough burn cycle.

Now we’ll look at some of the support systems, starting with the camshaft. In order to configure the piston dome so that at TDC, there’s minimal volume on the intake side, the camshaft must open the valve very little prior to TDC on the overlap cycle. Once past TDC, the valve may open at the same rate the piston is traveling down the bore until approximately 12 degrees past TDC, when the piston’s out of harms way.

The actual length of the cams' events is entirely a function of maintaining the correct combustion space, while allowing enough fresh mixture in and spent gasses out, as required by the engines displacement, desired output, and permissible operating RPM range. This now brings us to the subject of ports.

All our original data that was made public indicated that we were achieving a very homogenous mixture in the cylinder with swirl inducing ports. The increased power and fuel efficiency were simply due to better mixture quality control prior to ignition and during the "confined" burn on the exhaust side of the chamber. Our assumptions were only partially correct.

Normally when designing the chamber and piston configuration we never check the static compression ratio as long as the "combustion space" is acceptable, regardless of application (normally aspirated or force fed.) We have found that many of our engine's compression ratios were well over 23-1, and we also learned that allowing new customers to know those numbers was not always good for business. Monday mornings are still always fun when we get the call regarding how well the combinations ran, then we’ll let them to know part of the reason why. Regardless of the weekend performance, it still scares them to death.

is the same as H 1, but the piston is at TDC. Note the dome design is displacing almost the entire mixture to the exhaust side for the burn. This piston / chamber interface is why we can run this configuration on both N/A and blown engines. The static compression ratio is high, but in order to achieve the combustion kinetics we desire, it must be. This chamber bias is the basis of the "Soft Head" and. As you can see, it's easily adapted to many engine styles.
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Old 08-16-2005, 02:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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yeah, im gonna have to say there wasnt much mention of COMPRESSION. and mentioned nothing of street or octane. so i'm curious as to exactly where your argument is. it was all about head contours and geometry. not much mention of compression, so that was SUCH a sound argument :bh so i say to you sir,

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Old 08-16-2005, 02:10 PM   #8 (permalink)
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BTW I never said that it couldn't be done or hasn't been done. I just said I wouldn't do it, I mean if 13:0:1 was the best compression ratio the ITR would've used it if it could be reliable and make an appropriate HP figure. There are 2 sides to every coin.
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Old 08-16-2005, 02:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
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BTW I never said that it couldn't be done or hasn't been done. I just said I wouldn't do it, I mean if 13:0:1 was the best compression ratio the ITR would've used it if it could be reliable and make an appropriate HP figure. There are 2 sides to every coin.
nicely put. i know of a few cars that are running low 12's on pump gas and doing fine but i personally wouldn't do it. just too much of a risk with the limited budget that i operate on. if i had the money i would probably give it a go, but i'd still limit it at about 12.0:1 for obvious reasons such as limitations in detonation resistance. not sayin it couldnt be done though
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Old 08-16-2005, 03:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
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i run 12.5c/r + supertech flatfaced valves and a 2 layer h/g in my daily driven hatch on 93 octane.
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Old 08-16-2005, 05:30 PM   #11 (permalink)
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i run 12.5c/r + supertech flatfaced valves and a 2 layer h/g in my daily driven hatch on 93 octane.
never said it couldnt be done. pretty sick setup actually i just personally wouldnt do it for long-term reliability reasons. if i had more money, id do it daily and not even worry about it. its a task, but as long as its tuned correctly itll be AOK
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Old 08-16-2005, 09:18 PM   #12 (permalink)
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so would it be better to advance or retard timing to get a better burn rate? seems like to advance would make a quicker burn. basically you want the intake side open longer to have a longer burn then to open the exhaust side to let the old gas out. thats why vtec was created. that the variable timing was set up to keep intake gases in longer and then let exhaust gases out fast after the burn.
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Old 08-16-2005, 10:08 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Correct me if im wrong. Do high compression engines really last that long????? I always wondered that. As mentioned before, someone said that you don't need high compression to make a street car. This is what im wondering. If i had the option of going all out on the motor by high compression, I would sure as hell do it. I have to respect the all motor type people cus they actually tune the car to its maximum potential. Say what you want, but i think of it this way. Forced induction should be a last resort. I know this is the most common route, cus you can only do so much to get power out of a four cylinder.
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Old 08-16-2005, 11:46 PM   #14 (permalink)
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high performance engines only last as long as how well they were built. But comparing exact builds by the same guy with the exact same tuner running in a different range say 14:0:1 c/r in a track slut and 11:0:1 in a street car, the street engine will definately last longer even if the street car is driven just as hard. People can argue compression shit all day and night, yeah 13:0:1 is possible, but I think there are better ways to make power than compression.
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Old 08-17-2005, 04:24 AM   #15 (permalink)
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yes its about combustion space the burn quality and so forth but to achieve all of that you wind up with high compression. i have spoken to larry widemer many times on the phone (i was his dealer at the shop i worked for) and he freely talked to me about his set up hence i knw he is running a static compression ratio od 13.5:1 and 92 is all you get in texas. i need to know why you think a 11:1 engine will last lonnger than a 14:1, if the same care is taken on the build there is no difference. which has a higher cylinder pressure a turbo car or an na car? a turbo car...how many turbo cars are on the road? a ton, and if done right the will last a long time. so where is the arguement?

as fore timing, advancing the timing doesnt make for a quiker burn it makes for a more complete burn in regular engines. he is saying because of the camber and piston design forcing the mixture into a confined space and having no residual gases left from the last burn he is able to retard the timing because he gets a quicker quality burn and didnt need the advance to get a complete burn.

honda makes a PRODUCTION engine. they have to play things real safe because people in general are idiots. also the cost of having to take the time to build one of these engines is high and the quality of parts are also high and when you are working with mass produced cast aluminum parts that have a tendencey to be a bit on the inacurate side it makes it very hard to do.
look i understand your statement and you dont have to run high compression, my engine runs 13:1 and its awsome, i get 158lb/ft torque at the wheels (84mm bore and 87.7mm stroke not 89mm)there is nothing you can do with out compression that will give you that ( i guess an 87mm bore might but thats just stupid). i was terrified when i built my engine cause the highest i thought you could run on the street was 11.5:1 but i took the chance and learned that not only does endyn make sense but hell it really works. all my egt's were around 1000 degrees my oil temps and water temps were normal my vacumn was unreal. yea there is more to making power than compression but without it you wont realize the engines true potential.

lastly its nice to see some thught provoking stuff on a message board rather than the same ol same ol "what times will my b16 run in the quarter with bolt ons" thanks for your comments guys cause they make people have to think (myself included).
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