b16 vs b18b on a crx?

[ksniperfox]

Originally Posted by charliemopps24

This arguement is kinda academic anyway. B-series engines are gonna go the way of the dodo bird before long. K-series engines are where it's at. They're better engines in almost every aspect. Argue about that now.

lol...


but seriosly assume a 5.7 LS(x) swapped hatch, and that 5.7 made 450whp/450wtq and revved to 4900. then take same hatch and put in 500whp/250wtq b16 revving to 9k+. what do you think is going to be faster?

tq and hp are always the same at 5252rpms, and torque always is decreasing towards the end of the rpms, and HP is usually going up still because that small torque is being applied faster and faster by engine speed. that is why even the same weighted cars, one with a boosted b16 and one with a 350, one with assloads of torque, but the one with smaller tq, but revving to the sky to make more power will win.

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by 2camvtec

And no you don't need tq and hp. Gearing and power to weight is where it is at. A 94-95 Mustang GT runs mid to low 15's A Type S Run low 15's to high 14's. But wait the Mustang has more HP and double the torque.

Again if I had the money then I would have probably went with a c1, but my b16's did the job and I had a blast with them.

you're way of thinking is very flawed. first off the mustang only makess 210-215 hp and 285 lbs of torque compared to the type s's 210 hp. the mustang runs's a 14.9 vs the type s's 14.7. but you are missing one point. the mustang weighs in at a whoppoing 3400-3500 lbs vs teh type s with 2800 lbs. that is a huge weight difference. Your argument would only hold up if both cars weighed the same which they clearly don't. there is a 500-600 lbs weight difference between teh two cars. if you put that 5.0 v8 into your typ you would be running well into the 13's easily with 285+ torque. gearing will only take you so far at a certain point you need torque. the reason i used teh cavalier vs the em1 si is because both cars are in identical weight classes. but the cavalier has 20 less hp than the civic yet runs a good half a second faster in the 1/4 mile. why is this? because of it's torque. so you can't just throw a typ s and mustang into the equation they are completely different cars. and your statment further proves my point that the cavalier's tiime would be comparable to a type s' yes the cavalier has 60 less hp than the type s. on a side now remeber that the mustang is also rwd having more drivetrain loss than teh type s so in essence the type s puts down more whp and weighs atleast 500lbs less but can only run .1-.2 faster than that heavy pig

[-B3aST-]

after thinking it over and over and reading all u guys post i decided to go with a b16...any ways i herd ls vtec gives u alot of probs any ways

[2camvtec]

Originally Posted by WVU97GS-R

you're way of thinking is very flawed. first off the mustang only makess 210-215 hp and 285 lbs of torque compared to the type s's 210 hp. the mustang runs's a 14.9 vs the type s's 14.7. but you are missing one point. the mustang weighs in at a whoppoing 3400-3500 lbs vs teh type s with 2800 lbs. that is a huge weight difference. Your argument would only hold up if both cars weighed the same which they clearly don't. there is a 500-600 lbs weight difference between teh two cars. if you put that 5.0 v8 into your typ you would be running well into the 13's easily with 285+ torque. gearing will only take you so far at a certain point you need torque. the reason i used teh cavalier vs the em1 si is because both cars are in identical weight classes. but the cavalier has 20 less hp than the civic yet runs a good half a second faster in the 1/4 mile. why is this? because of it's torque. so you can't just throw a typ s and mustang into the equation they are completely different cars. and your statment further proves my point that the cavalier's tiime would be comparable to a type s' yes the cavalier has 60 less hp than the type s. on a side now remeber that the mustang is also rwd having more drivetrain loss than teh type s so in essence the type s puts down more whp and weighs atleast 500lbs less but can only run .1-.2 faster than that heavy pig

Huh? Maybe you didn't read my post. I was making the argument of power to weight which you argued it right back?

And though I've never seen a Stock 4cyl Cavi at the track I have a hard time believing it will run low 15's. I could be wrong though.

[solsykness]

Originally Posted by -B3aST-

after thinking it over and over and reading all u guys post i decided to go with a b16...any ways i herd ls vtec gives u alot of probs any ways

whoever gave you that info is a DAUMBASS! I hate it when ppl are misinformed, and then spread that shit around like a fuckin virus....ls vtec is WONDERFUL. You have to get it put together right (the first time) and tuned...You can't just slap a vtec head on an ls block and call it a day.

[placid888]

the sound of vtec is "priceless" ...............b16 all the way

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by ksniperfox

of course there is always more potential with displacement in THIS argument, but stock vs stock id always prefer the b16. more compression, more hp stock, easy to make power on with boltons. seen the engine tech threads where stock block/head b16s are making 195whp and shit.

in a drag race you're in the high rpms all the time too? something called launch/throttle control/good driving is used to launch at a good rpm point where the most torque is made with littlest wheelspin? does that not overcome the low end tq of the b18b to stau in the high end powerband? ill never believe that ls will meet or beat a gsr in the 1/4. thats all i have to say. peace.

stock vs stock the b16 looks better on paper but gets outperformed by the b18b. high comp and high hp mean nothing when you are still slower. and no when dragracing you do not stay in the upper rpms like you would think. that's more like road racing. drag racing is more depending on powerband. the b16 can't ustilize it's higher hp till it's too late. hence why it loses. the ls will keep up with a gsr in the 1/4 mile if you give it a shorter geared tranny. the b18b teg vs a b18c1 one teg are dead even up untill the middle of third and what do you know? they have the same 1st and 2nd gear. so it's not a coincidence. people jsut don't want to believe that a vtec motor isn't fast even though it has higher hp.

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by 2camvtec

Huh? Maybe you didn't read my post. I was making the argument of power to weight which you argued it right back?

And though I've never seen a Stock 4cyl Cavi at the track I have a hard time believing it will run low 15's. I could be wrong though.

you argued that torque means nothing because a mustang makes more hp and torque than an rsx but runs's a slower 1/4 time. your argument was flawed. first off teh mustang isn't in the same class and weighs more than the rsx. also the mustang doesn't make more power than an rsx. it makes the same to the flywheel and less to the wheels. yet it only run's .1-.2 seconds slower. if torque mean nothing than that 600 lbs weight difference would offer a larger handicap for the mustang. you can't just throw random cars into an argument. hence why i compared the em1 si to a ecotec cavy. they both weight withint 2500-2600 lbs. both are fwd and both are 5spd. the ecotec cavy run's a mid - low 15. the si runs high 15's. if torque means nothing and gearing means everything, then why does a the cavy with 140hp run a half second faster than the equally weighted si which has 20 more ponies and much much shorter gearing. hence your argument is very flawed. when talking 1/4 mile racing how high yoru HP isn't a very good deciding factory. you need to take into acount your torque curve etc. the b16 is a pathetic motor if you want accerleration. anything that makes 90 wtq at 6K+ rpms is just stupid to use as a drag motor. it doesnt' even get good gas mileage

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by placid888

the sound of vtec is "priceless" ...............b16 all the way

to bad vtec isn't a sound. you can't "hear" vtec. You might hear cam profiles change but you aren't making a "vtec" sound

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by solsykness

you can find b18b's for cheap. Whereas b16's, ppl are always trying to get more than they are worth.

AND, wouldn't the b16 eventually catch up bc of it's top speed compared to the b18b with an si tranny? (in the quarter mile) On the street I can see it getting whipped all day....

in the 1/4 and on the street the b18b owns the si. on the highway it's another story. the b16 needs to stretch it's legs out to be effective. it's a much better motor at the track than teh b18b. but when you start moddign them the b18b has a slight edbe over the b16. the b16 will make more hp but the b18b has a much better torque band.

[MQTGSR]

WVU-97GSR, I can't tell you how much I agree with eveything you have said. You and me seem to be the voices of reason.

And BTW, I don't care what it revs to, you drop a 350 from a c5 vette into a dx hatch, you will beat a boosted b16, the torque and reduced weight will do wonders. It's NOT ALL ABOUT HP!!! Hence why B16 is not as good as B18.

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by MQTGSR

WVU-97GSR, I can't tell you how much I agree with eveything you have said. You and me seem to be the voices of reason.

And BTW, I don't care what it revs to, you drop a 350 from a c5 vette into a dx hatch, you will beat a boosted b16, the torque and reduced weight will do wonders. It's NOT ALL ABOUT HP!!! Hence why B16 is not as good as B18.

well it all comes down to the application. like if i knew i was going to be living in the 6K+ rpm range and had light track car. then i would pick the b16. if want agility and accleration and quick as daily driver. i would take the b18b. peak hp means jack shit. it's all about powerband. you can't argue that at all. 160 hp with one motor is different than 160 hp on another motor. you need a balance of torque and hp and where you make the hp in your powerband. and when you boost either motor, the b18b won't make as much peak hp but look at the sick ass torque band it will make over the b16. a 240whp b18b will be more than a match for a 270whp b16 at the 1/4 mile track granted they are in similarly weighted vehicles.

[ksniperfox]

Originally Posted by MQTGSR

WVU-97GSR, I can't tell you how much I agree with eveything you have said. You and me seem to be the voices of reason.

And BTW, I don't care what it revs to, you drop a 350 from a c5 vette into a dx hatch, you will beat a boosted b16, the torque and reduced weight will do wonders. It's NOT ALL ABOUT HP!!! Hence why B16 is not as good as B18.

torque doeesnt do shit if you cant rev and apply it. see any diesel trucks making more hp than tq? no. they dont rev high enough to make the power. hence they are only good for hauling shit. no hp/lots of low end tq=towing.

any motor(or b16/b18/k20,etc) making less torque, but more HP than any v8 will smoke it, regardless of weight.

if you upgrade the valvetrain of a b16 and rev it to 9500, you gain 0 torque, but your HP goes up and the car goes faster. hp does matter.

[MQTGSR]

Ok, but in all fairness a diesel truck can rev max, like what 5000? if that.

Even a c5 revs up to 6, 6500. Plenty enough to make power. I have built a few Chev. 350's in my time. And at the strip I have seen countless 4 bangers fall, even with tons of boost. Take into account, that a stock vette makes 350 hp. and 380lb. ft of torque. The cars can rev, granted not as high as any honda, but they don't need to. I am not saying HP is not important or irrelivent, but it is not as important as ppl make it out to be.

I have seen many 4-500 hp civics that don't hold up to a 4-500 horse V8, it's the torque again(and one could argue the RWD). On paper you'd see the HP #s and think the cars are evenly matched, you would be wrong. You can have less a sizeable hp diffrence over a b16 b18 whatever and still win if you have a decent motor makeing decent torque. Not just v8's either, look at an inline 6, they rev high, make lots of torque and lots of HP, do better than a lot of cars.

As the old saying goes, there is often no replacement for displacement, the more you have the more power you can make, and more potential, period, you can't dispute that logic.

[2camvtec]

Originally Posted by WVU97GS-R

you argued that torque means nothing because a mustang makes more hp and torque than an rsx but runs's a slower 1/4 time. your argument was flawed. first off teh mustang isn't in the same class and weighs more than the rsx. also the mustang doesn't make more power than an rsx. it makes the same to the flywheel and less to the wheels. yet it only run's .1-.2 seconds slower. if torque mean nothing than that 600 lbs weight difference would offer a larger handicap for the mustang. you can't just throw random cars into an argument. hence why i compared the em1 si to a ecotec cavy. they both weight withint 2500-2600 lbs. both are fwd and both are 5spd. the ecotec cavy run's a mid - low 15. the si runs high 15's. if torque means nothing and gearing means everything, then why does a the cavy with 140hp run a half second faster than the equally weighted si which has 20 more ponies and much much shorter gearing. hence your argument is very flawed. when talking 1/4 mile racing how high yoru HP isn't a very good deciding factory. you need to take into acount your torque curve etc. the b16 is a pathetic motor if you want accerleration. anything that makes 90 wtq at 6K+ rpms is just stupid to use as a drag motor. it doesnt' even get good gas mileage

No I was not arguing about torque. I was arguing power to weight. Stop trying to put words in other people mouths. We can have civil debate, but please do not try to use my words the way you seem fit. I simply was using the Mustang vs RSX because of the power/weight difference to show that a car with less power (i.e. hp and torque) but weighs less and has better gearing can be just as fast or faster.