P0441: Evaporative emission control system incorrect purge flow

[rdrx]

97 Accord V6 - anyone had any success getting this code to go away. I have checked the vacuum hoses in and around the charcoal canister and all are good. new gas cap a month ago. Any suggestions? Can the canister itself go bad?

[HondatechAV6]

if your vacuum lines are ok, it sounds like your purge control solenoid might be seized. i had one last week that was seized, but was ohming ok.

start with getting two wires and disconnect the valve. hook up the valve to the battery and if you hear a soft click, keep looking. if you don't hear(it's soft, you'll most likely feel it better) replace it.



(usually the valve just seizes. replace it and you're done. if it clicks and you're not sure about it, try to vacuum test it. hook a vacuum gauge up and see if it holds about 15" of vacuum. if it does, energize the solenoid-the vacuum should drop to 0 immediately. don't exceed 15" though, or you could damage it.)

now, if the purge control solenoid is clicking(and testing ok if your absolutely thorough) check the purge flow switch. this thing is just a pressure switch.

if there is positive pressure it is ON(should have continuity) it sends a signal to the ECM to energize the purge control solenoid. the ECM will then energize if other pre-determined conditions are met which we have no control over.

if there is negative pressure it is OFF(no continuity) the ECM detects no signal from the pressure switch.

this means 2 things. either the pressure in the evap system dropped because of recent purging and normal operation dictates it's time to shut of the purge control solenoid or there is a malfunction.

the malfunction is the ECM determined it's time to energize the purge control solenoid and the purge flow switch is not changing after 6 seconds of operation. it should change value to the ECM but if it doesn't it will throw a code cuz it doesn't know whats happening. oh well. hehe...

SO, check the purge control solenoid then if it's ok, check the purge flow switch. let me know if you need some help or something.

This code is for the canister side of the evap system. the gas cap fixes a tank side leak usually. (P1456)

joe

[rdrx]

Joe,

thanks for the input man. I will be testing all that this afternoon. I greatly appreciate it since Honda wants $80 an hour to troubleshoot. I will keep you posted.

[HondatechAV6]

Originally Posted by rdrx

Joe,

thanks for the input man. I will be testing all that this afternoon. I greatly appreciate it since Honda wants $80 an hour to troubleshoot. I will keep you posted.

thats nice, we charge $99/hr. gotta love downtown chicago.

joe

[rdrx]

OK next silly question to make sure I am looking/testing the correct things. Will all of these valves be identified in the haynes manual or do I need to get something else?

[HondatechAV6]

well, i can't tell you want haynes will supply, but maybe this will help.


http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/6021/untitledud7.gif


it's been awhile since i was under the hood of a 5th gen accord v6, but i think the purge control solenoid and purge flow switch are next/close to each other.

joe

[rdrx]

Ok I think I found the problem. Purge control Solenoid. Got one on the way. Next issue is running rich. blueish gray smoke. Stinks. light smoke that gradually increases unitl high rpm's. Smeels like fuel not sweet. Am I looking at rings or something causing it to run richer than normal? this is a stock v6 with high miles?

[HondatechAV6]

blueish smoke is usually oil burning. if it was not taken care of + high miles it could be rings, valve seals, etc... try a slightly thicker oil. 5w 30/40(if you can find it).

joe

[rdrx]

Joe,

thanks for the help. Got the CEL light ot go of with the purge valve replaced. Another question. Car smokes white smoke after sitting for a few minutes. IF you come to a red light and are there a few minutes it starts smoking a little. First thought it was blueish smoke but it is white. I noticed yesterday the coolant overflow tank was empty. So I filled it up and am going to see what happens the next couple of days. I also noticed that it is leaking oil at the bottom of the timing cover. So could this be blown head gasket, or valve stem seals or what? The smoke really stinks but it doesn't smell like fuel I don't think like I said in my previous post. What ways are the best to diagnose blown head gasket or should I just tear into the timing belt kit and do the stem seals and all? Thanks

[HondatechAV6]

oil at the bottum of the t-belt cover is usually from a seal from under the timing covers. it's usually 1 or both cam shaft seals, but it could be the crank seal. you just won't know until you tear it apart. if the mileage is high, just do all three and rest easy.

your engine uses hydraulic valves, usually no problems with these unless the car has been neglected in reguard to oil changes. even then it just gets loud. During a t-belt on this engine, we don't even look at the valves. nothing to adjust. even then with bad valve stem seals, it would just leak oil internally.(burn it) and if you don't have any oil comsumption other than the leak, valve stem seals are probably ok.

the only other common oil leak on the 97 v6 i can think of off hand is the side covers gaskets on the side of the heads. those gaskets are pretty cheap and easy enough to do. they are under the vertical plates coving the side of the front and rear head. 8 bolts holding each one on.

the white smoke may be a head gasket. depending on the brand of coolant, it smells either AWESOME (honda genunie coolant smells like liquid jolly ranchers!!) or crap.

our shop has a nice tester that when put over the radiator fill cap it will take a sample of the air in the radiator(just drain out some coolant so you don't suck any up in the tester). if any combustion gases are found the liquid in the tester will change color.

but for a street tech with no special tools i'd just take it to a reputable shop and ask to have the head gaskets checked, complain about the white smoke. it's cheaper to have it diagnosed that way than go out and buy the $300+ tester.
say you're going on a long family trip, and the smoke concerns you. you can't have any problems because your nightmare of a mother in law is coming along. that way if the head gasket is bad and they don't diagnosis properly, if you complain enough maybe you'll get it for free!


joe