I am not a suspension guy so I am sure others can add to this. But a strut is as Chio mentioned. It's an all in one setup, spring and shock.
The real major difference is that with a strut setup you don't have a double-wish bone suspension.
This is a strut (missing the spring around the shock):
As you can see here as the tire would lift over a bump it would tend to lean in and thus pull some of the tire up from contacting the road. The strut style is compact and lightweight.
This is a double wishbone:
Double wishbone is more complicated, more moving parts but would keep the tire flat thru the entire travel of the suspension.
There is good and bad to both but overall the best setup is the double wishbone. Your tire is supposed to be able to maintain better road contact with a double wish bone setup. Both systems use springs and shock though.
Honda really screwed up in my opinion with the new Si/SiR and the strut front end. One of their main signatures was the double wishbone suspension at all four corners.
This is really the question you were asking weren't you?
The strut (in a McPhereson setup) carries more side/cornering loads than a damper in a double-wishbone suspension does. Considering that, a strut tower bar does more for the suspension on a McPhereson type than a double-wishbone type suspension). It is true that a double-wishbone suspenion WILL maintain more consistent road contact at the tire.
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Honda really screwed up in my opinion with the new Si/SiR and the strut front end. One of their main signatures was the double wishbone suspension at all four corners.
It's not really a screwup, they're just keeping up with the changing times: everyone else does McPhereson, so why not Honda? The engineers determined that this setup will have more advantages vs. the DW setup (space and cost) and went with it. When the 2001 models came out, this change to struts was widely discussed and the general consensus was "good enough" since many high-end makes like BMW or Mercedes and the like were doing the same thing and getting good performance.
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Originally posted by PupaScoopa Another strut vs shock absorber fact:
It's not really a screwup, they're just keeping up with the changing times: everyone else does McPhereson, so why not Honda? The engineers determined that this setup will have more advantages vs. the DW setup (space and cost) and went with it. When the 2001 models came out, this change to struts was widely discussed and the general consensus was "good enough" since many high-end makes like BMW or Mercedes and the like were doing the same thing and getting good performance.
I disagree. I was recently in a debate about this with one of my buds that owns a CLS. He was defending the struts. I just asked him straight out if he would prefer to have struts or DW in his CLS. His reply was, "Good Point!"
Even I can recognize they do have some benefits but in all honestly this is about performance, not saving space or money. You ask any car guy which he'd rather have and you'll get the same response I got above because he knows it's better.
Yes yes, I have heard the performance is good, and yes BWM and even Porsche use them. I'll tell you what, if I am going to spend $60K or more on a car you can bet I am not buying anything with struts in it and I don't care if it sports a BMW badge or not.
Ask yourself this, if struts are so good how come they are not in the S2000 or NSX?
The fact of the matter is that Honda had a recognized compact, reliable DW setup that they used in everything. Now they choose to go with a strut to save money and space and because the "industry" is doing it. To me that is a cop out and a mistake. Every article I read about this change supported my opinion to the letter. Maybe struts are "good enough" for you, but they aren't for me, not at the kind of dough a guy lays out for a new car these days.
I disagree. I was recently in a debate about this with one of my buds that owns a CLS. He was defending the struts. I just asked him straight out if he would prefer to have struts or DW in his CLS. His reply was, "Good Point!"
Even I can recognize they do have some benefits but in all honestly this is about performance, not saving space or money. You ask any car guy which he'd rather have and you'll get the same response I got above because he knows it's better.
Yes yes, I have heard the performance is good, and yes BWM and even Porsche use them. I'll tell you what, if I am going to spend $60K or more on a car you can bet I am not buying anything with struts in it and I don't care if it sports a BMW badge or not.
Ask yourself this, if struts are so good how come they are not in the S2000 or NSX?
The fact of the matter is that Honda had a recognized compact, reliable DW setup that they used in everything. Now they choose to go with a strut to save money and space and because the "industry" is doing it. To me that is a cop out and a mistake. Every article I read about this change supported my opinion to the letter. Maybe struts are "good enough" for you, but they aren't for me, not at the kind of dough a guy lays out for a new car these days.
Anyhow, that's my opinion on it.
Very true, I wasn't really leaning one way or another... just laying the benefits of both out in the open. I would personally prefer DW, but that's not going to make or break a sale (that's an opinion).
I agree with your strong preference to DW if you're going to spend more than 60G's... for that price, you deserve the best... but on a Honda Civic? Remember what it is: An economically priced car for general transportation. The cost savings (a guestimate only) would be a few hundred dollars per vehicle... that adds up quite a bit in the end.
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So by your methods, because it holds a Civic badge, we can't expect a DW suspension because it's supposed to be a thrifty car?
"Economically priced car for general transportation", that would be a good description to post about my girlfirends Toyota Echo. Do you think these two cars are in the same class?
I don't think you will find a 6th Gen owner in here that will appreciate that title given to his Si/SiR. It's the best of the batch.
My car was almost $30K after options and taxes, so don't tell me I am buying low end here. Our Si/SiR's gets featured in Sports Compact Car for a reason guy. That being said, you still have plenty of trunk space to get your groceries too.
My point here is that, I don't think we need to spend $40K or $50K on a car to get this feature. Honda has been doing it for years till now.
Sure ok, the other models , DX, EX or whatever can have the strut front end, but lets have some distinction of performance here. The Si/SiR deserved this feature and to pass it off as "good enough" is a cop out IMO.
As I said, for years this has been a signature feature that Honda has always had and now they dismissed it for space and money savings. I will be keeping my 6th gen for at least another 2 or 3 years and if Honda doesn't get their head outta their ass by then I will be looking at other camps for features I expect in a Sport's car.
My biggest fear is that it's this' "good enough" opinion that everyone seems to have will make damn sure that any cars out there now with DW suspension will be long gone by the time I am ready to sell and buy again.
Originally posted by Chiovnidca
Struts have the spring mounted on them. Shocks don't.
But by saying this I have a strut, but manic says the double wishbone is not a strut set up so he says I have shocks. Also my buddy who has a 4x4 Chevy, his shocks ave springs around them and they call them shocks. Is there a real answer for this, or do i look like a fool whenever i have to ask for parts?
Originally posted by yanchulacivicsi now i'm just getting really damn confused. What the hell am i asking for?
A Strut is an all in one assembly. The spring and shock are married together like so.
In this picture the spring/shock is all one assembly and that is what is referred to as a strut.
What I said is true, a Strut is different from Double Wishbone because it's all independant parts. If you want to just change your springs on a DW setup you can. On a strut you do it as an assembly.
So if you have a strut frontend and you go ask someone for some shocks they might give you a funny look as ask if you mean struts. Because that is how they are replaced, as a complete unit. I believe for the cost of a strut it is not feasible to just change the spring or the shock, you might as well change it as a complete unit shock & spring assembly.
Now if you have a DW suspension and you need new shocks then that is what you would ask for. As I mentioned, DW setups have more parts and are more complex. They are also designed so you can just replace key components like just springs or just shocks or whatever. It can be an advantage and a dis-advantage. If it's all worn out you might wish you had struts.
Originally posted by yanchulacivicsi
But by saying this I have a strut, but manic says the double wishbone is not a strut set up so he says I have shocks. Also my buddy who has a 4x4 Chevy, his shocks ave springs around them and they call them shocks. Is there a real answer for this, or do i look like a fool whenever i have to ask for parts?
I say a strut has a spring mounted on it like your double wishbone setup. (Which most Hondas use.) Not to be confused with your buddys 4x4, which has a shock mounted inside the spring. (Not an assembly.) Mabee Maniac thinks a MacPherson strut setup (as shown in his pictures) is the only type of strut there is?
Originally posted by 93si when did honda put dw on si i have a 93 si and it has struts. also whats the diffrence between a strut and a coil over?
Good question, my Honda history is not too good. Perhaps someone else can add to this because I haven't a clue when it became a common place standard for them.
Originally posted by Maniac So by your methods, because it holds a Civic badge, we can't expect a DW suspension because it's supposed to be a thrifty car?
"Economically priced car for general transportation", that would be a good description to post about my girlfirends Toyota Echo. Do you think these two cars are in the same class?
I don't think you will find a 6th Gen owner in here that will appreciate that title given to his Si/SiR. It's the best of the batch.
My car was almost $30K after options and taxes, so don't tell me I am buying low end here. Our Si/SiR's gets featured in Sports Compact Car for a reason guy. That being said, you still have plenty of trunk space to get your groceries too.
My point here is that, I don't think we need to spend $40K or $50K on a car to get this feature. Honda has been doing it for years till now.
Sure ok, the other models , DX, EX or whatever can have the strut front end, but lets have some distinction of performance here. The Si/SiR deserved this feature and to pass it off as "good enough" is a cop out IMO.
As I said, for years this has been a signature feature that Honda has always had and now they dismissed it for space and money savings. I will be keeping my 6th gen for at least another 2 or 3 years and if Honda doesn't get their head outta their ass by then I will be looking at other camps for features I expect in a Sport's car.
My biggest fear is that it's this' "good enough" opinion that everyone seems to have will make damn sure that any cars out there now with DW suspension will be long gone by the time I am ready to sell and buy again.
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"Economically Priced car for general transportation" means that the Civic was originally designed for just this. The Si/SiR is that same car with a boatload of extras to make it drive faster and turn better. I drive an Si, I wouldn't be dogging it out of random... I love the car, but I'll remember it's heritage forever.
I agree that Honda's upscale/sporty end should have DW. Why call it an Si ("Sport Injection") in the first place anyway? I think Honda believes that we will in fact settle for less. If you wanna start the petition, I'll be the second one to sign it!
Just to let you know, I'm still not fully against the strut setup. Both designs have their advantages and disadvantages and it's up to the engineer to determine the best one for the application.
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Hey maniac...remind me to never get into an argument with you allright!!!!
No doubt!
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