» Wheel & Tire Center

» Sponsors
» Sponsors
Go Back   Honda Forum / Acura Forum - SuperHonda.com > Honda Lifestyle & Entertainment > Off-Topic Lounge > The Garage
Register Home Forum Active Topics eBay Marketplace Gallery Video Sales Mark Forums Read

Please Visit our Site Sponsors

SuperHonda.com is the premier Honda Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads. Please Register - It's Free!
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-15-2005, 02:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
Dark Wind
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Newark, DE
Posts: 5,514
Car: 1979 Porsche 911SC, 95 Chevy S-10, 2 1990 Miatas
Mods: Don't you wish you knew
hobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problem
Why your car is the way it is...

Often people wonder why factory turbo cars only add 30-40 hp over the non-turbo edition, or why their stock springs are so weak, or why cars arent lowered out of the factory, why the gear ratios are what they are and whatnot. This is my attempt to explain these phenomena.

Engines and Warranties

Factory FI doesnt make great power. The STi's turbo is WAY to small. The Mazdaspeed Miata's turbo was intentionally modified for a smaller compressor side, and it's intercooler is made intentionally too small. The Cobalt SS only makes 205hp. Why? Two reasons. First, the cars have to be drivable by Mr. Dumbass, so that the insurance rates arent out of this world. Who wants to buy a $20k car and then pay that much every few years in auto insurance? Second, the engines have to be warrantied. To go to higher boost, the internals need to be strengthened, and more R&D needs to be done. The entire driveline needs to be re-engineered to take the stress. This costs money, and raises the price of the car. If this engineering isnt done, then the car isnt as reliable, and the company is out lots of money in warranty repairs.

"But Honda/Nissan/Mazda/whatever motors are better because they're all motor, and they make the same/more power than other companies' FI motors, and then you can add FI, and it'll really kick ass, right?"

Not exactly. I have yet to see a motor that is an "ultimate N/A motor" (high compression, high revs, etc) be an "ultimate boosted motor". If you just slap a turbo onto a high-comp motor, and run any sort of boost that means anything, the motor is a goner. "Ultimate boosted motors" tend to have much lower compression (regained with the boost) so that they dont knock and/or blow the cylinder heads off. (sucks for the owner, but fun to watch)

For instance, if the K20 was factory turbo, it would not be running 11:1 compression out of the factory. It would be at 8.5:1 compression or so, and it would be making about the same power out of the factory that it is right now, just with boost, for the reasons above.
hobie237 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 12-15-2005, 02:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
Dark Wind
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Newark, DE
Posts: 5,514
Car: 1979 Porsche 911SC, 95 Chevy S-10, 2 1990 Miatas
Mods: Don't you wish you knew
hobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problem
Continued...

"Why does my car understeer so much?"

So idiots can drive it. Plain and simple. When a car understeers, (or oversteers) a person's natural reaction is go get on the brakes. This is the proper way to correct for understeer, but not oversteer, so understeer setup it is.

"Why is my factory suspension so weak?"

Because the average buyer is not an enthusiast. 99% of buyers will never come close to seeing the limits of their cars. So the springs are a comprimise between cutting down bodyroll in corners and a decent ride. If stiffer springs were standard, everybody would rip it apart for not having a good ride.

"Well, why dont they just lower it, so that it corners better with the same spring rates?"

Because if they lowered it, the average person would scrape the belly on bumps all the time. If it was lower it would be less capable in the snow, it couldnt make it through. If it was lower, and you didnt care about sport as much as carrying loads of stuff around, you would hit the bump stops when your sagging trunk hit a bump.

Why are my gear ratios the way they are?

The average person doesnt like to shift all the time, so they're longer. Thats the way it is. Some models are sportier with closer ratios, but not all that many, and it's a shame.

Why do my factory tires suck?

Save a nickel. Its one way for the carmakers to cheap out and nobody will really care. If they went with better ones for enthusiasts, they would have to charge more for the car, and the average buyer, who doesnt know the difference, wont pay for it.

Why does my factory sound system suck?

The average buyer doesnt care. I dont even care. If it plays halfway decent sound, its good enough for me, so whatever. I'm not going to pay for a more expensive car so that it can have a better sound system, so those who want better just have to upgrade.

Why are cars so expensive?

They're not. Think about the money that goes into producing the car. The money to pay the designers, the engineers, the workers, the money to build the factory itself, the shipping costs, the costs to build the dealership, etc., and its not all that much money per car, its a volume thing.
hobie237 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2005, 02:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
Dark Wind
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Newark, DE
Posts: 5,514
Car: 1979 Porsche 911SC, 95 Chevy S-10, 2 1990 Miatas
Mods: Don't you wish you knew
hobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problem
Moral of the story...

It's all comprimise. Costs of production and engineering, costs of materials, costs of labor, costs of insurance, all balanced against what people want (average people, not us enthusiasts) and are willing to pay for, and how much they'll pay for it.
hobie237 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2005, 03:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
Iron Monk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: St.louis/Chesterfield
Posts: 3,417
Car: 2004 Rsx Type S,1998 Twin Turbo Supra,Fiances car 2003 Evo 8
Mods: Ask to many to bother listing....Plus theres not enough room
GotBoost98 In the stratusphereGotBoost98 In the stratusphereGotBoost98 In the stratusphereGotBoost98 In the stratusphereGotBoost98 In the stratusphereGotBoost98 In the stratusphereGotBoost98 In the stratusphereGotBoost98 In the stratusphereGotBoost98 In the stratusphereGotBoost98 In the stratusphereGotBoost98 In the stratusphere
NIce ricky you did a write up.......Rep! I wonder how others will take this
__________________
1998 Twin Turbo Supra
2004 Acura Rsx Type S
2003 Evo 8 Fiance's car
2000 Acura Integra Type R::Stolen::

Gotboost? Im getting obnoxious in my old age
These are a must see guys check them out!!!
The Truth About Dyno Testing 139 DIY tuning Tips Cryogenic Treatment
Turbo Troubleshooting 101 Turbocharging Vs Supercharging Octane Facts
Turbo Sizing Code Breakers Honda Trade Secrets Tire Size Vs Power Production

GotBoost98 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2005, 03:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
Dark Wind
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Newark, DE
Posts: 5,514
Car: 1979 Porsche 911SC, 95 Chevy S-10, 2 1990 Miatas
Mods: Don't you wish you knew
hobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problem
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotBoost98
NIce ricky you did a write up.......Rep! I wonder how others will take this

The truth can hurt sometimes...
hobie237 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2005, 01:41 AM   #6 (permalink)
S Zero Racer
 
Mr GSR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: B18C1 Honda Street
Posts: 2,800
Car: 1995 Integra GSR BG-33P
Mods:
Mr GSR has a Rep problemMr GSR has a Rep problemMr GSR has a Rep problemMr GSR has a Rep problemMr GSR has a Rep problemMr GSR has a Rep problemMr GSR has a Rep problemMr GSR has a Rep problemMr GSR has a Rep problemMr GSR has a Rep problemMr GSR has a Rep problem
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobie237
It's all comprimise. Costs of production and engineering, costs of materials, costs of labor, costs of insurance, all balanced against what people want (average people, not us enthusiasts) and are willing to pay for, and how much they'll pay for it.

So true. I took an engineering class where we had to design paper airplanes. We had to make the factory area to build them, then build them, then test them, then perform them. We learned all about chosing one method over another, adding features or not, maximum performance for money, ect.... after that class you understand more why companies do thing and cheap out where they can.
__________________
1995 Integra GSR BG-33P
2008 STS Class Winner (TAC)
2009 STS Class WInner (TAC)
Mr GSR is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2005, 07:27 AM   #7 (permalink)
SH Silver
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Fairfax, Virginia
Posts: 268
Car: 1997 Honda Accord
Mods: In the sign....
97ACCRD is just really nice97ACCRD is just really nice97ACCRD is just really nice97ACCRD is just really nice
Excellent write up.
__________________
Washington Redskins 3 - 7


Even though we lost, Jason Campbell showed why he is #1.
_______________________________________
My Rides:

1997 Honda Accord (DX, 4spd Auto) - Not Stock....ish.
2004 Nissan Altima 3.5 SE V6 (5sp Manual, 245 hp & 246 ft lbs tq.)
98% of teenagers do or has tried smoking pot. If you're one of the 2% who hasn't, copy & paste this into your sig.
97ACCRD is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2005, 08:10 PM   #8 (permalink)
GunMetal Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cosby, TN
Posts: 542
Car: 96 vtec prelude
Mods:
96vteclude is a splendid one to behold96vteclude is a splendid one to behold96vteclude is a splendid one to behold96vteclude is a splendid one to behold96vteclude is a splendid one to behold96vteclude is a splendid one to behold
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobie237
Factory FI doesnt make great power. . Why? First, the cars have to be drivable by Mr. Dumbass, so that the insurance rates arent out of this world.
i knew it thats why we all dont have 500hp streetcars dang those people
edit: just remembered my sig dont hold that against me it was extenuating circumstances im actually one of the better drivers in my area
__________________
96vteclude is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2005, 08:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
Digital Blueprint
 
expierence97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Geneva, IL
Posts: 1,667
Car: 99 Prelude Type SH, 83 RX7 GSL
Mods:
expierence97 Hello down there miniscule peonsexpierence97 Hello down there miniscule peonsexpierence97 Hello down there miniscule peonsexpierence97 Hello down there miniscule peonsexpierence97 Hello down there miniscule peonsexpierence97 Hello down there miniscule peonsexpierence97 Hello down there miniscule peonsexpierence97 Hello down there miniscule peonsexpierence97 Hello down there miniscule peonsexpierence97 Hello down there miniscule peonsexpierence97 Hello down there miniscule peons
Quote:
Originally Posted by 96vteclude
i knew it thats why we all dont have 500hp streetcars dang those people
edit: just remembered my sig dont hold that against me it was extenuating circumstances im actually one of the better drivers in my area
Good drivers don't hit light poles. Certainly not to the extent that you apparently did.
__________________
PFC USAR - Light Weight Vehicle Mechanic
83 RX7 GSL
99 CMB Prelude Type-SH - Type-S swapped
08 YZFR1
Autocross is for drivers.
Drag racing is for cars.


Prelude FAQ

expierence97 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2005, 08:30 PM   #10 (permalink)
GunMetal Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Cosby, TN
Posts: 542
Car: 96 vtec prelude
Mods:
96vteclude is a splendid one to behold96vteclude is a splendid one to behold96vteclude is a splendid one to behold96vteclude is a splendid one to behold96vteclude is a splendid one to behold96vteclude is a splendid one to behold
Quote:
Originally Posted by expierence97
Good drivers don't hit light poles. Certainly not to the extent that you apparently did.
like i said it was extenuating circumstances i had just had my wisdom teeth pulled 3 days before that and a friend needed me to take him home, pain pills and driving apparently dont mix i had that car 29 days i miss the sucker it was clean to with some really nice mods
__________________
96vteclude is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 06:41 AM   #11 (permalink)
GunMetal Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 596
Car: 04 Solara V6
Mods: Simple. Clean.
accordjtstyle Hello down there miniscule peonsaccordjtstyle Hello down there miniscule peonsaccordjtstyle Hello down there miniscule peonsaccordjtstyle Hello down there miniscule peonsaccordjtstyle Hello down there miniscule peonsaccordjtstyle Hello down there miniscule peonsaccordjtstyle Hello down there miniscule peonsaccordjtstyle Hello down there miniscule peonsaccordjtstyle Hello down there miniscule peonsaccordjtstyle Hello down there miniscule peonsaccordjtstyle Hello down there miniscule peons
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobie237
For instance, if the K20 was factory turbo, it would not be running 11:1 compression out of the factory. It would be at 8.5:1 compression or so, and it would be making about the same power out of the factory that it is right now, just with boost, for the reasons above.
lol. with the new RDX coming out using what appears to be a modified K24....it does add much more power. Turbo is not only limited to 40hp gains. Didn't the 300zx turbo make a crapload more power than its non-turbo version?

and the 1989 Legend 2.0 Turbo was much power than its 2.0L N/A version.
__________________
2004 Toyota Solara * 2000 Honda Interceptor
Click below noobs:
accordjtstyle is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 01-10-2006, 06:54 AM   #12 (permalink)
Dark Wind
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Newark, DE
Posts: 5,514
Car: 1979 Porsche 911SC, 95 Chevy S-10, 2 1990 Miatas
Mods: Don't you wish you knew
hobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problemhobie237 has a Rep problem
Quote:
Originally Posted by accordjtstyle
lol. with the new RDX coming out using what appears to be a modified K24....it does add much more power. Turbo is not only limited to 40hp gains. Didn't the 300zx turbo make a crapload more power than its non-turbo version?

and the 1989 Legend 2.0 Turbo was much power than its 2.0L N/A version.

Since the RDX is an upmarket car, the rules are a bit different than a Civic Si or RSX-S. Since the markup is higher, as with the 300ZX turbo, more money can be spent on R&D to make it somewhat reliable, and this will be paid for by the higher markup. You would be hard pressed to find a car for under $25k making decent gains from a turbo, but when you get into the $30k+ range, the gains are more and more. Just think about it, the money spent on the car is pretty much the same, besides the motor. What is the difference between a bottom of the market CRV and this RDX? The drivetrain, and some electronic gizmos, and the difference in price is largely brand and performance markup.
hobie237 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2006, 06:17 PM   #13 (permalink)
SH Black Diamond
 
hcarcrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: dayton
Posts: 438
Car: 1990 crx si
Mods: b16a, dc header, aem cold air, thermal 2.5 cat back, high flow cat, msd 6al cap and coil,msd plug wires,full engery supsension bushing kit, neuspeed racesprings, neuspeed rear sway bar, fast brakes willwood big brake kit (f&r),kirkey 6pt roll cage, oil cooler, brake ducts, kirkey race seat, 9 autometer gagues, little to no interior, 5pt harness
hcarcrx has a spectacular aura abouthcarcrx has a spectacular aura about
so so true about factory cars!! so much goes into cutting the costs on cars, how to make them last, and the every day stupid drivers!!! rep added :w00t
hcarcrx is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2006, 09:50 AM   #14 (permalink)
Iron Monk
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,172
Car:
Mods: Go-fast stuff, Alpine 9855, Infinity Perfect 10.1 & 6.1 w/ a few hundred watts on each via Pioneer 5100T & 7100M.
Nathan123 Hello down there miniscule peonsNathan123 Hello down there miniscule peonsNathan123 Hello down there miniscule peonsNathan123 Hello down there miniscule peonsNathan123 Hello down there miniscule peonsNathan123 Hello down there miniscule peonsNathan123 Hello down there miniscule peonsNathan123 Hello down there miniscule peonsNathan123 Hello down there miniscule peonsNathan123 Hello down there miniscule peonsNathan123 Hello down there miniscule peons


Somebody who "gets it".
__________________

'02 EB Z06
mods: Vararam intake, Breathless bridge, Dynatech Supermaxx SS headers & X-pipe, Breathless shifter, Dyno tuned (~400 RWHP).
1/4: ???

SOLD:
'01 Camaro SS M6 (Lid & Nitto 555Rs, best 12.6@110)
'95 Formula M6 (CAI, Mac hdrs/Y, cutout, SZ50EPs, best 13.6@103)
Nathan123 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2006, 07:57 PM   #15 (permalink)
CarbonSword Ninja
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: saint charles illinois
Posts: 1,450
Car: big ol v8
Mods: slow
sloganish has a Rep problemsloganish has a Rep problemsloganish has a Rep problemsloganish has a Rep problemsloganish has a Rep problemsloganish has a Rep problemsloganish has a Rep problemsloganish has a Rep problemsloganish has a Rep problemsloganish has a Rep problemsloganish has a Rep problem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan123


Somebody who "gets it".
great write up, well done!
__________________
v8
sloganish is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.1.0

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:38 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®. Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.3.2