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Integra GS-R Rebuild

22K views 96 replies 11 participants last post by  clayton 
#1 ·
Hey guys I know I’m new here and all but I thought some of you would be interested in my NA B18C1 build. Now I’m not saying it’s something special or anything but since I started coming up with the parts list I’ve had one goal in mind a 205-215whp daily driver and a motor that will last 80,000-100,000 miles before it needs tearing down again. Up until the other day I was still undecided about valves and I still kind of am but I am pretty sure on what I have listed. I’ve been working on this list for about a month now doing constant research and decided it was time to post it up because I just ordered some parts last Friday, so If anyone has questions on why I chose certain parts I would be kind to let you know why.

Here's my project

IMAG0157 by Sycosys, on Flickr

Oh yea I almost forgot to let everyone know why this happened, well about 3 months ago shortly after putting my new clutch and lightweight flywheel in I did the infamous Money shift (3rd to 2nd for those who don’t know) sending my motor to 11,300rpm. btw this motor had 150,000 miles on it and all that happened was 5 bent exhaust valves and 5 cracked valve guides, only if my exhaust valves would of had dual springs I wouldn’t have to be doing this, lol. But now I get a lot more power so yay for me.
Thanks for checking out my build guys I’ll upload some pics when I get parts :)

Mahle pistons 9cc High Compression 81.25 12.5:1-13:1
These allow me to run tighter PTW clearences because they are made of 4032 alloy, their only .25mm oversize so I have extra room to overbore if I need to, and I like their side skirt coating more than Wiseco.
Brian Crower lightweight Sportsman Rods w/ARP2000 426g
I chose these because of their lightweight to make my engine more responsive and they were fairly cheap as well. also I wanted to replace the old ones that have 150,000 miles on them.
OEM Honda Main/rod bearings, thrust washers, complete set.
OEM bearings allow me to run my deisred clearences much easier.
Skunk2 Pro series Intake Manifold
It was either this or the blox and I like the quality of skunk2 products so I chose this one.
Larger throttle body but not sure what kind and size
Skunk2 Pro Valve Spring set
Because they have a lower seat pressure than most aftermarket springs which will reduce wear and they are reccomended for their line of pro cams.
Skunk2 Cam seal
Skunk2 Pro1 Cams (I’ll have to wait on those so ill be using my GSR cams for a few months)
Brian Crower steel retainers
Because they don't wear as fast as the titanium ones and I won't have to check them as often and or replace them.
Ferrea completion plus Valves
It's a little over board for my build but this way I don't have to worry as much about valves handling the abuse.
Ferrea valve locks Hylokeeper
stronger than OEM ones to handle the increased spring pressure/valve lift.
OEM Honda Valve guides
I chose the OEM guides because the bronze wear out to quickly any where from 30,000-60,000 miles.
OEM Honda Valve stem seals
I almost always use oem seals because of their high quality.
ARP Head bolt kit
to handle the increased RPM and power
ARP Main stud kit
I might not be using this acutally because it requires a line hone to be done.
Hondata Intake manifold gasket
to reduce intake temps.
Extended Intake manifold studs
to make it easire to use the hondata gasket.
Avid torque mounts
old ones were worn out.
Larger injectors when I get the money
B18C Oil pump OBD2
B18C Lower timing cover OBD2
B18C Water pump OBD2
B18C Timing belt w/tensioner
B18C Oil pickup (strainer)
All OEM gaskets for the rest of the motor

Like I said before I’m still kind of undecided on the valves it was either that, Brian Crower, ITR Intake w/oem exhaust, or ITR Intake with Ferrea for the exhaust. But if anyone has any advice for me regarding the valves or anything else in my build I would be glad to hear it.

Here's some more info on my current setup.
Mild port job on cylinder head
AEM Short Ram intake
DC 4-1 header
Omni power test pipe
Apexi WS2 Exhaust 60mm (2.36")
ACT lightweight flywheel Streetlite 12.5lbs
ACT Heavy Duty pressure plate/ACT Performance clutch disk 245ft/lbs
Hasport engine mounts

And yes I plan on a larger throttle body but Im not sure what size yet I would like a 70mm or 72mm opening tapered down to 68mm so i can make use of the Venturi effect but i'll have to see about that, and yes I know to get the intake manifold port matched to the throttle body. By the way I live in WI so almost every gas station has 93 octane.
 
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#2 ·
I don't think you'll hit 200whp with this. I see upper 180's to lower 190's.

At least not on there Stage 1 cams, most stage 1 cams are about the same profile as your basic Type-R cams. I would go with the Pro 2's, they should get you into the mark you want. The pro 3's are a bit much if you are going to be dailying this thing.

And 12.5:1cr is going to require 93 octane or better, anything lower and you'll encounter problems. You can get into the 200whp area without compression being that high. You can probably get away with the standard JDM ITR pistons, they yield an 11.8:1cr. That should be more then enough, and give you more valve clearance. You can also run 91 octane as a lot of places around the US don't have 93 octane. There are only 2 gas stations around me that do if that says anything.

Have you bought any of this stuff yet? If you want the same quality parts for cheaper, JHPusa has the Supertech valvetrain on sale. Get the flat dish race valves, titanium retainers, dual valve springs for both side, and new valve guides for $550. I think the only thing cheaper might be Blox. The only reason to buy Skunk2 is strictly for the name, not saying the quality is bad because its not, they make very nice stuff. But if you are balling on a budget, there is an alternative.

What throttle body do you plan on using with the manifold? The stock 60mm GSR will hurt your performance. A Type-R is 62mm would be great for the 11.8:1, but if you can pick up a Blox or Skunk2 65mm, you should be alright, especially if you are using the 12.5:1 pistons.

What are you going to do with the fuel supply? OEM will tap out sooner, this thing is going to be a thirsty machine. I would suggest a Walbro pump, S2000 injectors or OBD1 H22 injectors, AEM filter if you haven't replaced it in awhile, and Skunk2 composite fuel rail and regulator. If you can't find any of those injectors, RC Engineering makes some 310cc, 370cc, and 440cc injectors. I don't think you will need the 440's though. I've heard steel braided fuel lines help out by not flexing or expanding under pressure, allowing better fuel flow.

How about the rest of the air flow? Are you going with a cheap intake, short ram, cold-air, or the infamous whale penis?

And what about the exhaust side of things? Cheap headers or costly ones? Stock cat, high flow, test pipe, or resonator? What size exhaust are you planning on using? I'd say get an eBay header and test pipe/resonator/high flow cat. If you are going to scrape and dent them, which will happen, why not get something that you can replace for a lot less. There's no real reason to spend a few hundred dollars when you can spend $50 on a combo. As for the exhaust, you really don't need anything larger then 2 1/4 inch piping, if you want to go larger, a lot of companies sell 2.375 inch exhaust, it's slightly larger and is the entry size for most big brand companies.

Well that's my 2 cents on your build. Feel free to take in my suggestions. And feel free to ask questions.
 
#8 ·
As far as hitting 200whp with skunk2 Pro 1 cams and my set up I know it won’t be a problem I’ve seen numerous dynos with set ups similar to mine break 200whp easily. And the pro1 cams are not that close to the Type-R cams their much more aggressive, now skunk2 tuner1 are almost the same as the Type-R cams if you’re getting them mixed up. And if I went with the pro2 cams I could probably get about 230whp but they’re a little too aggressive for me but in the end I may side with those.

If I were to use ITR pistons it would bring me about 12:1 after I deck the block and mill the head 0.005 each. So I rather run forged pistons especially because their about the same price as oem ITR pistons and the piston to valve clearance will be close to the same because the valve reliefs are designed for increased dome volume with high compression forged pistons.

For my valve train I’m staying away from supertech because I’ve heard to many horror stories about broken valves, although its more than likely installer error. So Ferrea seems to be my top choice as far as reliability and longevity are concerned, and in case you didn’t know flat face valves don’t flow as well for our motors as the dished ones because the concavity of the valves creates a low pressure pocket, pulling the intake charge over the edge of the valve, and they also weigh less. For the rest of my valve train I’m using skunk2 pro springs, Brian Crower steel retainers that won’t wear as fast but still lighter than stock ones, and I’m staying away from bronze valve guides and going with oem guides so I don’t have to replace them in 40,000 miles.

I think for now the stock fuel system will be okay as long as I’m using stock GS-R cams, but when I do upgrade I’ll probably only change the injectors as the Walbro fuel pump generally isn’t needed for a NA motor same for the composite fuel rail but I will get those if and when the time comes. With the exhaust I would like to upgrade one day to 80mm with a 80mm WS2 muffler but for now my set up should be sufficient with my 60mm exhaust. My budget is definitely limited but I want to get the right parts that will work best even if some of them cost a little more.
 
#3 ·
Dont bother with comp that high. Its bad for your engine. What people don't understand is that if you increase cr too much you must pull ignition timing which is bad because the flame front wont propogate as fast as it needs to for peak cyln pressure to occr 20° ATDC.

11:1 Is as high as I would run on a street motor with 92 octane.
 
#5 ·
I was trying to post but this fucking phone is going insane
 
#11 ·
I don't understand why your trying to run 12.5-13 :1 CR in a pump gasoline car. Your gonna blow the damn thing up in 20k miles, while waisting power from all the ignition retard you will have to use.

11:1 pump gas maybe 11.5. But 12.5? God damn man NO honda comes stock with that much CR. Worse yet I think your forgetting that those "JDM" emgines can get away with a small bump in CR simply because japan has higher octane ratings than the US and they only run up to 11.7 compression ratio.

Why are you throwing money away?

Turbo/super/nitro cars can get away with it because they aren't always running at boost with an effective comp of 12-15:1. they also have intercoolers which reduce final compressed air temp before ignition happens.

Though I am not a professional by any means I have read my fair share of builds and seen the distance between them being built and destroyed.

A guy ran 9.5:1 comp on his turbo 626 which doesnt seem like much. He got detonated on after 70k miles. Carbon WILL build up and it WILL make heat risers and increase your cars compression ratio beyond what you build it with. I strongly suggest you do 11.5 at the MAX. 11:1 will probably never fail you even after 150k miles of hard abuse as long as it was built right and proper maintainence was used.

Race cars choose parts not because they are the best, but because they are the best application for what they are doing. Just because its a RACING part does NOT mean its gonna rock ass in your STREET car.

I suggest you read all of these documents listed below:
EM-4 Tech Page - theres lots of info there im not posting the ones I think you should read because its all good.

Directory Listing - scroll down to the G's and read the grapeape pdf's

LS7 engines run 11:1 comp which REQUIRE 91 minimum. 2 points of octane if you even find 93 in your area, wont support 12.5:bomb
 
#13 ·
I’m not trying to be a jerk by saying this but I did edit my first post with some more info in case you haven't read it yet. And I guess C-speeds compression calculator is off a bit so I just used the zeal calculator and got what you got so sorry about that. Well if you’re going to buy oem JDM ITR pistons it comes out to about $400, now they do have reproductions like the RS Machine pistons or NPR but those are made to U.S. specs only. I could have bought the PR3 replicas from RS Machine which have about the same dome displacement as the jdm ITR pistons.

There are 3 reasons I didn't do that, one being that they are made to use with stock rods and my rods have 150,000 miles on them so I know they've been put through their paces and don't want to risk breaking a rod because of fatigue so I decided I would buy some aftermarket Brian Crower rods for $360 instead of replacing oem rods which comes out to about $450 so in the end I’m spending about $150 more for forged pistons and some stronger rods which I'm okay with. The second reason for not getting the RS machine pistons is because they only come in 81.5mm where as the Mahle have a 81.25mm size which will allow me to have more room if for whatever reason I need to bore it out more later on and it allows me to use oem piston rings if I choose to because of their size.

I just calculated the compression on zeal and after I deck the block and mill the head I will have a compression of exactly 12.5:1 if the block and head don't need to be decked then it will put it at 12.1:1 but either way I have found plenty of people that run 12.5:1 or even 13:1 with no problems on 93 octane which I have in my state some places even have 94, all it takes is a good tune because the main cause of detonation is when you have a bad tune. The shop that’s going to tune my car is King Motorsports and I actually spoke with them and they said that I will have no problems with my engine going boom at 12.5:1 and I was told that they build almost every NA motor with a compression of 13:1 there. And here is a link about more information on why it should be okay, and if not search for yourself.

Compression Ratio Explained (Static & Dynamic) - Team Integra Forums - Team Integra

The guy I spoke with at Ferrea said they tested the flow of the flat valves vs the dish valves and the dish valves performed better and they're lighter which is better for all motor. So the slight bump in compression from flat valves really isn't worth it because you’re not going to make any more power because of it and you'll just add on more weight for you valve train so he recommended I stay away from flat faced valves as far as a b18 is concerned.

And no valve guides are not valve guides there are plenty of differences between them even between 2 different bronze guides the alloys could be totally different and have different properties. And no oem valve guides are not bronze they're iron.

Titanium retainers may be lighter and stronger per gram than steel but they wear out and often need replacing way before steel ones often times the steel one's will last 3 times as long as the titanium ones and since this is for my daily I prefer the longevity of the steel ones versus having to check my retainers every 5 or 10 thousand miles. I paid $64 for my Brian Crower steel retainers and I know for a fact that the supertech titanium retainers are at least $100 more.

The supertech springs have a higher seat pressure and unless you actually measured their open pressure there’s no way you can say that they're not as stiff because the measurements for the pro springs and the supertech springs were not done at the same measurement and from doing a basic calculation I’m pretty sure that the supertech springs are actually stiffer over all. And I much rather use the springs that Skunk2 recommends for their cams but that’s just me.

And in response to Morts the compression might be high but all I need is a good tune and once I get either the pro1 or pro2 camshafts it will help bleed out some of that compression because of longer duration and overlap. And as far as turbo cars are concerned they have intercoolers because they need those just to bring the charged air down to a reasonable temperature which is usually the same as someone with a cold air intake on a naturally aspirated car if not higher. I also read some of what was in those links and for the most part they talk about turbo charging in relation to detonation because of the hotter inlet temps and all the extra air that’s being forced in are more likely to cause detonation that a high compression NA motor.

This is my daily driver that will see quite a few auto crosses and a few track days and I don't expect it to last 150,000 miles, as i stated in my original post I would be happy with 80,000 miles out of it which seems very feasible even with 12.5:1 compression.
 
#14 · (Edited)
i put way too many miles on my car to run anything above 11.8:1. i did 30K on the bimmer since last year. but good luck with your build. i would've just sold your entire swap and said screw the work and went with a k20a or h22a-S.....bolt-ons and they are both reliably over 200whp lol...and the price and down time associated with the b18c build make it an even trade lol
 
#15 ·
i would've just sold your entire swap and said screw the work and went with a k20a or h22a-S.....bolt-ons and they are both reliably over 200whp lol...and the price and down time associated with the b18c build make it an even trade lol
Yea I would of loved a K swap but the fact that it would cost like 8 grand with k-pro is just to expensive, I mean thats double what I'm spending now.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I would go used on the ems, and what the helm conversion kit costs 1500-2000 ?you know the wrong people lol

Also the h22a-s makes the same power and more tq. 220 hp out of the box coupled with an h2b swap and you'll be making more power more reliably than an over taxed b18c1
 
#19 ·
Im loving this thread, only because im all into the big number RPM Honda's.
Dont forget to get the crank knife edged and balanced to make things spin quicker and vibrate less, Also Maybe Chryo treat the crank?

One thing that is constantly over looked with any big RPM engine is a oil breather catch tank, stops nasty oil vapors getting burnt richening the mixture (or so your lambda thinks reducing the fuel input) also keeps your intake etc nice and clean. :D
 
#25 ·
That's good. If it were the one in Ohio, I would tell you to run away. I've had to redo motors they have done, it's never fun. Worst I have come across was a rod that went into the head. And they try and do these big builds for people and say its streetable. It's part of the reason why I will stick to my guns and say you don't need that high of compression for the streets. I try and shoot for under 12:1 for a weekend racer/daily driver, and try to hover around 11.1:1 for a pure street car, occasionally I'll let a mid 11.2-5:1 slide for a street car, but it has to be done right.

I still say go mid to upper 11's:1 and Pro 2's. Same power you will get with the 12's:1 and Pro 1's. But it will be a lot more reliable then the 12's:1 and Pro 1's. But this is just me, it's your build, you do it the way you want. I will wish you the best of luck, and hope you see more then a year or 2 out of the motor.
 
#27 ·
Id like to see the ignition tables for a 11.1 cr build and a 12.7:1 cr build. All run on 91/92/93 octane take your pick. Im betting a good ammout of missed power is tied into the tune you will have to live with on pump gas because your cr is simply too high.

Sure you can tune out some of it with the cams... but your losing out still there because scavaging will be effected and again this will reduce power because your volumetric efficiency will be reduced in a feeble attempt to run this 12.5-13.0 cr build.

Im sure you know a fair ammount on parts but I don't think you realize what your getting yourself into. Are you going to sacrafice power loss from drastic overlap changes and extreme camming along with the fact that tuning out the cr from a interference motor which was running 9 or 10. To 1 more critical with 12.5:1. Honestly man unless your gonna run 100 oct all the time do't even bother.
btw.
Wiesco used to have about the best price for pistons with custom size ne options unless you bought from a private seller.

Hey my phone works for now!
 
#31 ·
In response to Morts my compression ratio will be 12.5:1 this is not a guess but it is exactly what it's going to be (+/-1%) and once my motor is tuned I will post up the ignition table and dyno graphs.

And the larger cams that I want to run will require a higher compression because of their long duration/overlap will inadvertently bleed off more compression . yes I could run pro2's with an 11:1 compression and make about 205whp but if I bump the compression to 12.5:1 I could make about 230whp.

Heres a link to some dyno graphs of the tuners street car at king motorsports. I know it's only 12:1 compression but I just wanted to show you.
205 WHP LS GRAPH INSIDE Pump gas 93 OCT. - Honda-Tech

And also here is a link to Kingmotorsports website where I will be getting my engine tuned, if you scroll to the bottom you can look at numerous dyno graphs and the specs for each build almost all of them run 13:1 on 93 octane.
King Motorsports Unlimited, Inc. - B Series Builds
 
#32 · (Edited)
are those dynojet(fake) numbers or mustang dyno(real) :p

I know larger cams need more comp ratio....but i just don't like that kind of comp ratio for a daily. but that's just me. there is a built b20vtec with those kind of numbers for sale near me...they only want 2500 for it. do you honestly believe you're going to hit 230whp?...that seems a bit overestimated for your particular build. then again i could be wrong.
 
#33 ·
That's on a dynojet which does not mean its fake, if it's set up right the numbers should be close to the same. I've seen cars read higher on mustang dyno's and ive seen it the other way around but I know the dynojet's tend to read slightly higher.
And I should be able to hit 230whp with a ported cylinder head and a good exhaust system.

I will probably have a tune done on race gas later on so I can use it when I go to the track and that might allow me to gain another 10whp but we will see about that.
 
#35 ·
Yes I do know that you can get dyno's to lie and yes I agree they are just numbers. And as far as times at track I've seen a comparable set up run 12.8 with slicks in a integra. So that's kind of my goal which I think I will be able to achieve.
 
#37 ·
If you wanted to look into an H22 build. Type-S pistons are nice OEM pistons, they can handle some power. A 2-layered gasket will net you around an 11.1:1cr. Throw in some aggressive cams, an intake manifold, headers, exhaust, a Type-R to 65mm throttle body, and a good tune, you can hit the 220 mark. Relatively easy, and make a good amount of torque to go with it.

And selling your GSR would net you about all of the money spent back. Then tie in a stronger spring rate and you will handle the same as having the B18C. And the money you save can go for either more suspension, or even some carbon fiber to lighten your load. You can even look into an H2B conversion as well.

But that's if you want to look into an H22 build.


I looked at there Dyno numbers and cars. Judging by the look of the more drastic comps, I say those are track cars, maybe see a street or 2, but tracked. Stripped, cage, the major weight reduction, those are the usual track car designs. I was impressed by the B16B with 12.1cr making the power it did on 89 oct, but I am curious to see how that was tuned, and if they had a higher oct, how much better it would have been. And I would like to see how well the car is doing at the present moment, I am hoping it hasn't blown up yet.

But we'll see how this turns out.
 
#43 ·
So I was mulling over this silly build and others like it, such as the one the OP posted a link to. This 12.5:1 cr is just ridiculous.

I looked up max tq per liter and it belongs to a ferari. Which also happens to run a 12.5:1 cr. However the major difference between the ferari and the build this guy is wanting to make is the same as his engine and the mazdaspeed 3/6.

This would be DPFI(Direct Port Fuel Injection).

Instead of 8.5:1 cr the speeds are able to run 9.1:1 cr.

The other thing is he says he will tune out some of this compression with the cam gears. If he does this then power output will be sacraficed. So why not go less compression? Not to mention the engine he's building does not have coil on plug, which is much more critical as you exceed 11.1 cr on pump gas.

How much power does the new civic RR make with 2.0 liters? And what's he expecting to get out of a 1.8 with a cr of 12.5 to 13.0:1? Its not making sense. I know the k series is better but still when you get into performance builds like he's trying to do it doesn't make a whole lot more power. One of its real advantages comes from coil on plug.

If he needs yet another example look no further than the honda. S2000 engine.

Im anxiously awaiting the ignition timing this engine will have.
 
#47 ·
The other thing is he says he will tune out some of this compression with the cam gears. If he does this then power output will be sacraficed. So why not go less compression? Not to mention the engine he's building does not have coil on plug, which is much more critical as you exceed 11.1 cr on pump gas.

How much power does the new civic RR make with 2.0 liters? And what's he expecting to get out of a 1.8 with a cr of 12.5 to 13.0:1? Its not making sense. I know the k series is better but still when you get into performance builds like he's trying to do it doesn't make a whole lot more power. One of its real advantages comes from coil on plug.

If he needs yet another example look no further than the honda. S2000 engine.

Im anxiously awaiting the ignition timing this engine will have.
Let's start with what I actually I said about cams and compression

sycosys;4361971 And the larger cams that I want to run will require a higher compression because of their long duration/overlap will inadvertently bleed off more compression.[/QUOTE said:
Not once did I say I would tune out the compression with the cam gears, I will set up the cams to where they make the best power with in respect to P2V, and V2V clearance.
And as far as my compression ration is concerned I have already stated that it will be a max of 12.5:1 that mean it might end up being lower but yet you keep mentioning 13:1??? and yes the little difference does matter. Also have you ever tried building a motor like this? Do you have first hand experience with this type of build? And if you haven't looked at the links to the dyno's i posted I suggest you take a look, and you could even call them and talk to them about their numerous 13:1 builds that run on 93 octane. And I'm aware that I don't have COP but I will be able to upgrade to them if I so choose.

So as far as my "silly build" is concerned I would appreciate it if you left out your opinions based on why it won't work and find me some solid examples of it not working, but in doing so I am pretty sure that you will find more builds like mine that work than those fall flat on their face.
 
#50 ·
Built alot of these type of motors in the last few months.. tuned quite a few too.

I've found GSR's typically will like 12.1-12.5 CR on pump gas with good supporting mods.

Before i go any futher.. I have a customer who has a bone stock USDM GSR, I/H/E with my custom cams, he's making 208whp. Compared to Crower2's which he was making 190whp on. I believe he's in the 12's on slicks..
You can find more info on my custom cams and valvetrain that i offer @ facebook.com/customcams.


-The performerX will be the best manifold for your setup right now. skunk2 wont even come close, plenty of dynos and research to show that the best off the shelf manifold for a 1.6-1.9 liter motor is a pX.
-Ti retainers last as long as you maintain them.. keeping up with your valvelash and correct vtec settings will allow them to live longer.. i had crower ti-retainers for over 4 years before i switched to skunk2's pro series valvetrain, and then to my custom valvetrain.

-65/68mm TB should be fine for your setup.

setup sounds "decent"

Make sure to run a 3'' exhaust at least, and a good header..
 
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