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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I think this is the place to ask.

Although Honda has had some set backs in the past, they still rank way ahead of American manufactures. I was wondering if anyone had a clue as to why American car makers can't match the rest of the world in performance, reliability, and cost? This is especially true in the small car world where Toyota (I know many don't like them on this forum) has the Corolla (especially the XRS), Mazda3, Honda Civic (expecially the new one), etc have excelled where the Focus has had many recalls (wait and see on the Fusion), Chevy hasn't put out a decent small car in forever (wait and see on the Cobalt and if the 4 door will perform--NOT), and Dodge's Neon is about as reliable as my grandmother's ticker. Why can't they produce?

BTW, I am waiting, anxiously to see if Honda will put a better engine the Civic 4 door. I have three kids and need 4 doors, but I don't want to sacrifice performance. Mazda has done a great job with the 3, Toyota has with the XRS, and even Ford has said that the Fusion will have a performance version. Come on Honda! Make a 4 door Civic that will keep up!!!

Just wondering...
 

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i think the americans can match the world in terms of cost...they have the lowest resale values ;)

why don't u get an accord dude? seriously, if i had kids and all, i would want space for crap in the back...get a bigger car...civics, 3's, all those small cars are what i would say for the single person...
 

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dr_dohc said:
i think the americans can match the world in terms of cost...they have the lowest resale values ;)

why don't u get an accord dude? seriously, if i had kids and all, i would want space for crap in the back...get a bigger car...civics, 3's, all those small cars are what i would say for the single person...
3 kids in a Civic? maybe an upgrade to minivan or SUV. An Accord is by far the smallest car I'll ever own. Even now I think its too small for me, and I'm kid & wife less.
 

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BamaAccord said:
I think this is the place to ask.

Although Honda has had some set backs in the past, they still rank way ahead of American manufactures. I was wondering if anyone had a clue as to why American car makers can't match the rest of the world in performance, reliability, and cost? This is especially true in the small car world where Toyota (I know many don't like them on this forum) has the Corolla (especially the XRS), Mazda3, Honda Civic (expecially the new one), etc have excelled where the Focus has had many recalls (wait and see on the Fusion), Chevy hasn't put out a decent small car in forever (wait and see on the Cobalt and if the 4 door will perform--NOT), and Dodge's Neon is about as reliable as my grandmother's ticker. Why can't they produce?

BTW, I am waiting, anxiously to see if Honda will put a better engine the Civic 4 door. I have three kids and need 4 doors, but I don't want to sacrifice performance. Mazda has done a great job with the 3, Toyota has with the XRS, and even Ford has said that the Fusion will have a performance version. Come on Honda! Make a 4 door Civic that will keep up!!!

Just wondering...
the american doesnt want to keep their profit inside the company and use it for R&D instead they rather pay dividen to the stockholder. the japanese use their money to improve the technology that they copied from the german.
 

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the american doesnt want to keep their profit inside the company and use it for R&D instead they rather pay dividen to the stockholder. the japanese use their money to improve the technology that they copied from the german.
this is where i think they have a problem...do they specificly NOT want to keep the profits inside or do they NOT have a choice but pay the stockholders?

i think if they do keep this up for too much, soon there will be no more money to pay for the stock holders...they are gonna have to balance this better then...
 

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Because for the last 20 years, they were too busy investing all their money into trucks and SUV's while neglecting cars alltogether :rolleyes.

But they're trying to change now. Focus had plenty of recalls first 2 years, but has been a clean, cheap, reliable car the last couple of model years. I believe Consumer Reports even recommends it now so the last couple of years haven't been bad at all. The new Chevy Cobalt looks like a nice effort. I don't care for the sedan version, but really like the SS coupe. Leaps and bounds ahead of the POS cavalier it relaced. The neon is supposed to be replaced soon, and they're ditching the name too i heard, and so we'll so what they'll do next.

The Fusion should be nice. It shares platforms and powertrain with the Mazda6 which has been on the market for a while now, so i doubt problems will show up on them all of a sudden. What problems there were, i'd hope they have solved them during the Mazda6's first year.

We won't get the new focus for a while, but Europe already does, and it looks like a really nice car. In Europe, you could also get one with 250 horses and AWD. We probably won't get it for another 2 or so model years.

So while they've neglected the car market alltogether for the last 2-3 decades, they're trying to change that now.
 

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5.0 said:
Because for the last 20 years, they were too busy investing all their money into trucks and SUV's while neglecting cars alltogether :rolleyes.

But they're trying to change now. Focus had plenty of recalls first 2 years, but has been a clean, cheap, reliable car the last couple of model years. I believe Consumer Reports even recommends it now so the last couple of years haven't been bad at all. The new Chevy Cobalt looks like a nice effort. I don't care for the sedan version, but really like the SS coupe. Leaps and bounds ahead of the POS cavalier it relaced. The neon is supposed to be replaced soon, and they're ditching the name too i heard, and so we'll so what they'll do next.

The Fusion should be nice. It shares platforms and powertrain with the Mazda6 which has been on the market for a while now, so i doubt problems will show up on them all of a sudden. What problems there were, i'd hope they have solved them during the Mazda6's first year.

We won't get the new focus for a while, but Europe already does, and it looks like a really nice car. In Europe, you could also get one with 250 horses and AWD. We probably won't get it for another 2 or so model years.

So while they've neglected the car market alltogether for the last 2-3 decades, they're trying to change that now.
invest in SUV? dang they onli design new one using old technology i dont see them get any new tech other than bought it from the foreign company. remember ford bought land rover. GM bought isuzu coz they have great diesel and DCX just get stuff from mitsu or mercedes.

BTW europe got great american cars and oz got great cars too coz they dont really like SUV due to the realistic gas price
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
My wife drives the minivan (Odyssey of course ;)). I usually don't haul all three kids. Right now, I have a '90 Accord. It's tight, but they fit. The Mazda3 is actually an inch wider than my Accord and about as wide as a new Accord. I just like manual small cars--they are much more fun to drive. I have never test driven the Accord, so when the time comes (hopefully next year when we pay off the van) I will test drive the new Civic, Accord, Mazda3, and maybe a couple of others.

I believe ya'll are right in that the US market is trying to catch up, especially with gas prices shooting up--who wants a 12-15 MPG gas hog with $2 gas. BTW, the last report I say said we will not get the new Focus for at least a couple of years. :(

Good discussion, thanks!
 

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what it really boils down to is manufacturing:
workers for the big 3 are all protected by the UAW.
it's been posted somewhere on the boards before... the average assembly line employee i read earns about $90K a year(!?).

in gm's case, they cannot focus and must produce way too many cars and way too many models... how many companies are in gm, anyway? chevrolet, pontiac, buick, cadillac, gmc, saturn, opel, saab, subaru, holden, gmac (financial products???), etc...
honda and toyota have what... themselves (i don't count acura and scion and lexus as in their home markets, they don't exist).

i really believe the american companies can produce really great cars, but with all the money these unions want and everything they demand (and they are a lot!), i don't believe they can really put out truly great products.
 

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also, over the course of history, the markets were totally different...

america is this land of open, vast, empty roads...
thus, the desire for v8 powered cars with a lot of power (which birthed drag racing fanatacism)

europe is famous for high speed highways and many tight, mountain roads (the perfect breeding ground for the best drivers in the world).
so there would be a need for cars that can travel vast distances but maintain those high speeds (v8, v10, v12) and smaller cars for normal folks who couldn't afford super luxurious vehicles we normally associate with the autobahn (beetle, bora, golf)

japan is VERY mountainous (the reason there are so many damn good drifters there) and mostly everything there is narrow or tight... so they get all the minicars (which are actually really cool if you ever get to drive them!) and 4 cylinders are everywhere...
gas is expensive like most everything in japan because mostly everything must be imported, inline 4 engines were the way to go...
when the rest of the world went to the v6, japan used turbos...
so basically, they have really well-developed 4 cylinder engines, if you think about it compared to the states...
 

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theflipimage said:
what it really boils down to is manufacturing:
workers for the big 3 are all protected by the UAW.
it's been posted somewhere on the boards before... the average assembly line employee i read earns about $90K a year(!?).

in gm's case, they cannot focus and must produce way too many cars and way too many models... how many companies are in gm, anyway? chevrolet, pontiac, buick, cadillac, gmc, saturn, opel, saab, subaru, holden, gmac (financial products???), etc...
honda and toyota have what... themselves (i don't count acura and scion and lexus as in their home markets, they don't exist).

i really believe the american companies can produce really great cars, but with all the money these unions want and everything they demand (and they are a lot!), i don't believe they can really put out truly great products.
That is a BIG problem they are facing. GM is paying off $5billion dollars this year for healthcare alone. Pension costs are rediclous as well. And the Unions have way too much power. Overall, all cut into the Big-3's bottom line leaving them less $$ to invest back into their cars.

So they are facing a lot more hardship now than most of the import competitors. Toyota doesn't have to deal with these headaches.

But they really wouldn't be in this prediciment if they didn't shoot themselves in the foot with subpar cars in the 80's and 90's. Atleast now, they're putting forth the effort in improving both quality and reliability since they've closed the gap and made huge strides. But they really didn't put forth the effort in the late 70's, 80's and 90's.

They can produce great products. They made some of the best cars in the market pre-70's and i'm sure they could once again. But they've got to find a way to solve all their problems.
 

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on the reliability side of the american cars, i think the problem lies in its worker and their assembly line. the american companies (GM, FORD, Chrysler) get their parts from somewhere else then ship it cross the border (canada or mexico) for assembly. after the engine is assembled its shipped back to the US. so you see alot of parts being moved everywhere then assembled somewhere then shipped back to its original location. this will affect the QC.

not to mention that the UAW are lazy becuase they cant be fired. plus the quality control of the big three is still playing catch up.

someone said the japanese copied the germans. that might have been true like 15-20 years ago. you see the japanese taking the lead role in alot of the development now (hybrid, fuel cell, AWD, stability..etc).
 

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also, keep in mind the reason the japanese are into coming up with so many "different" cars is their market is VERY market driven...

you guys all know about how advanced their consumer electronics are, right?
casette walkmans, cd walkmans, md walkmans, (my wife came from japan and she laughs so hard everytime she saw someone with cassette walkmans they sell in the US) - same thing with cell phones and japan's cars...

scion xb, xa? they are part of that craziness to design something that would be a weird practical/funky thing to look at...

damn... come to think of it...
i wish you guys were all able to go to japan and spend some time there and see how much actual VARIETY of cars they have there!

never been to europe, but i bet it's the same there too!
 

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After we got through destroying Japan in WWII, we helped rebuild the country. The Americans taught the Japanese new manufacturering techniques (now called Japanese manufacturering techniques). Americans had the ideas to improve manufacturering processess, however it would require laying off workers and getting the UAW's panties all in a wad (thanks you bunch of lazy mother fuckers).
 

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I find it funny how someone up there also said the big 3 concentrated on trucks and suv's. You do realize that when Nissan threw the Titan out last year, it was on par with every truck on the market (although the buyer loyalty isn't built yet). Honda's Ridgeline is about 5 years ahead of anything any of the US manufacturers have put out (except in looks). It's kinda weird how the big 3 just compete with each other and ignore the Japanese manufacturers. Then japan throws something out that is either as good or better than anything america is offering and they just go "oh shit, we can't sell the same rehashed Mustang with a 1970's chassis under it anymore."

Of course Nissan was on par, they had a benchmark to meet or exceed, duh. Its EASY to make a new product that will be comparable to competitors. Nissan just looked at all the features of Chev, Ford, Dodge, etc.. and copied and made little changes. There was no industry leading innovation there at all. I dont see how you think the Ridgeline is 5 years ahead of any other truck. It has an extremely underpar engine, shoddy looks, & minivan based unibody.
 

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spray004 said:
Of course Nissan was on par, they had a benchmark to meet or exceed, duh. Its EASY to make a new product that will be comparable to competitors. Nissan just looked at all the features of Chev, Ford, Dodge, etc.. and copied and made little changes. There was no industry leading innovation there at all. I dont see how you think the Ridgeline is 5 years ahead of any other truck. It has an extremely underpar engine, shoddy looks, & minivan based unibody.
Underpar engine? Have you driven one? noooooooo, Shoddy looks? Have you seen the looks of the vehicles in the same class. and a minivan based unibody? haha your a fool, the Ridgeline has 95% original parts, sharing only motor and transmission with its fellow pilot, even the VTM system is different.
Why do you think Honda changed all of its trim level names on it? They wanted people to know that it is different, and isnt just made off some car platform, like the CRV, and that it is just thrown together as some parts bin, frankenstein vehicle. If you live in MA, i'll glady take you out on a test drive in one, and show you the light :hug
 

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BamaAccord said:
My wife drives the minivan (Odyssey of course ;)). I usually don't haul all three kids. Right now, I have a '90 Accord. It's tight, but they fit. The Mazda3 is actually an inch wider than my Accord and about as wide as a new Accord. I just like manual small cars--they are much more fun to drive. I have never test driven the Accord, so when the time comes (hopefully next year when we pay off the van) I will test drive the new Civic, Accord, Mazda3, and maybe a couple of others.

I believe ya'll are right in that the US market is trying to catch up, especially with gas prices shooting up--who wants a 12-15 MPG gas hog with $2 gas. BTW, the last report I say said we will not get the new Focus for at least a couple of years. :(

Good discussion, thanks!

Test drive an Accord 5sp 4cyl. Although not the "sportiest" you'll be surprised. I thought like you too and almost bought an SI until I test drove my accord. Better ride, much less torque steer and actually kinda peppy for what it is.
 

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Yes the engine is underpar, a brand new truck with an old ass engine. Honda should have at least developed a new engine for the truck. Looks are horrible, but looks are always a matter of opinion. And still where is the "5 years" ahead of any truck manufacturer? They still use a ladder style frame in the construction??? And little kiddies do you know why it felt the same when towing the same load as the base F150 they tested it against? Its called final gear ratio and also transmission ratios. Full size trucks with V8's dont need the low gears to pull big loads. A fully equipped F150 will tow almost double of what the Ridgeline will, so please don't go talking about the Honda is good for towing. Its still underpar compared to other trucks in its class (Tacoma & Dakota). And the VTM drive system??? Big deal, other companies have had it around for a long time, just in a different format. My old Explorer had the same thing, except it transferred power to the front wheels when the rear tires started to slip.

There will be no light showing for me. I will never own a foreign fullsize truck. The only Honda's I will ever own are mid size cars or atv's. Honda would have to have a high hp high torque V8, capable of towing 9-10k lbs, have a solid rear axle, and a REAL 4wd system (not some half ass shit) before I would even test drive one.


And when did I ever get on the subject of hybrids or cars for that matter? I was referring to Nissan's break into the truck market jack ass. :rolleyes
GM doesn't really have a great desire to invest all of its resources into hybrid technology.
 
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