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Discussion Starter #1
Hopefully someone will find this useful or at least interesting.

I have been riding on Eibach Pro-kits and Koni Yellows for just over a year. I have the stock 22mm front sway with a 99-00SI Rear 13mm sway. My tires are 195/55r15 with Yokohama AVS ES100.

The pro-kits were ok, but I wasn't completely happy with them. I could feel every bump in the road, but when I tried to drive hard, they were just too soft. The car sometimes felt like it wanted to roll over. Also seemed like my car just kept getting lower and the drop didn't appear to be even between the left and right side.

So, I decide to try out the H&R Sports. Keep in mind that Eibach pro-kits are supposed to drop 1.5" front, and 1.3" rear, and are 10-15% stiffer than stock. H&R Sports are supposed to drop 1.75" front and 1.5" rear and are 25-30% stiffer than stock.

I did the install yesterday and took a few pics comparing the springs. I only have one thing to say about the install... Using a spring compressor with a ratchet sucks. I was using air tools when I put the pro-kits on...

Anyways, here are a few pics comparing the springs :


Notice all of the "dead coils" on the H&R Sports. Should make for a relatively smooth ride on good roads.


Notice *NO* dead coils on the pro-kits. Really interesting since these are supposed to be progressive springs. Really seems like they are linear. Would explain my experience with them.


Funny how H&R Sports drop more in the front than the Pro-Kits, but the H&R Sport front spring is considerably longer than the Eibach... Once again, I think that Eibachs are actually linear, not progressive like the H&Rs.


Rear springs look nearly the same length, but notice the "dead" coils on the H&R.


Initial impressions... I'm lovin' the H&Rs. The car handles beautifully. The ride is a little smoother than the pro-kits, and very firm, but not stiff. It should be fine for my daily driver... Only time will tell. I got a tiny bit of bounce in the front driving down a certain stretch of highway, so I need to twist the knob on the front koni's a bit to handle that. No concerns, just needs a little tuning.

Only gripe is that while I wanted better quality springs, I loved the drop of the pro-kits. I really didn't want to go any lower. The H&Rs look great in the rear, but lower than I really want in the front. I'm probably going to raise the front end up a notch since the koni's are ride height adjustable.

So what next? Well, came home and saw the UPS slip on the door. My 16mm rear sway bar is here to replace my 13mm rear. Shouldn't have any subframe issues with this bar and even though the extra 3mm doesn't sound like much, gotta look at cross-sectional area. The 16mm has 50% more x-sectional area than the 13mm :) Best part is that I got it brand new for $50 shipped.

After installing the H&Rs, I noticed that handling is very balanced, I have more steering and less body roll, so no real understeer problems. It will be interesting to see what happens with the 16mm rear in place :)

Spring Rate Information Thread
 

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excellent, i switched form eibach because the springs started to sag and the ride was unforgivably harsh. the h&r's had better feedback and the ride in corners are great. it leans a little bit more than the eibach but it locks and stops after a certain degree. very predictable and when tied in with larger sway bars, it rocks. unfortunately i dont have adjustable struts which may take into account for the softer feel.

currently:
tokiko trash blues (came with car when i bought it)
h&r sports

25mmf/17mm rear sway

bars up the wazoo

as far as swaybars go, i'm thinking of going back down to a gsr's 24mm or increasing the rear sway to the itr.

i noticed when i installed my neuspeed bar, it definately understeered more.


i think i just commandeered your thread. sorry :D
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Sounds good. I've done a few adjustments on the konis and the ride is great. VERY smooth on decent roads, but a little harsh on bad roads (to be expected & roads in Richmond VA suck...). It is also very firm, so you know it when you hit something nasty in the road. The car is actually smoother than it was with the pro-kits and in my case is much more stable while cornering and maybe its all in my head, but braking seems to have been improved as well (I also have rear discs).

I've got poly bushings on my 22mm front and my poly end-links are on the way. I have a good amount of steering as is, but rear end does seem to be rolling a bit more than the front. Hopefully I'll be able to get this adjustable 16mm rear sway w/poly bushings installed this week. I'm thinking 22mm front w/16mm rear should be a very good street setup.
 

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i wouldnt be suprised if braking has improved, the progressive springs 'push back' (more so get stiffer) when the car nose dives. i have yet to get my rear disks on but i had already upgraded the fronts to teg spec. 22 front 16 rear should be great and you may incounter a little over steer, if anythign it will feel more neutral. i feel like i have to take corners wide so it wont under steer. what poly bushings are you using?


also braking is all up to your pads and tires, with contributions to suspension.

:D

excellent write up though (if i havent complimented in previous post)
 

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the "dead coils" do nothing for ride quality. they are there to lower the car.

The springs are longer cause H&R knows how to engineer great springs. they want the spring to be compressed 100% of the time...even if you were to jump the car and the wheels come off the ground....the spring will still be compressed. unlike coilover sleeves and probably eibach prokit springs...which can be bad if you were to lift a wheel off the ground and come crashing down.


sway bars will help you with the body roll.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Phantom_Sol said:
i wouldnt be suprised if braking has improved, the progressive springs 'push back' (more so get stiffer) when the car nose dives. i have yet to get my rear disks on but i had already upgraded the fronts to teg spec. 22 front 16 rear should be great and you may incounter a little over steer, if anythign it will feel more neutral. i feel like i have to take corners wide so it wont under steer. what poly bushings are you using?
Using ES poly bushings on the front and rear sway (still 13mm SI rear). The 16mm rear came with poly bushings. It is an AEM/Eibach rear. Don't know who the bushings were made by.

I noticed more understeer after installing the ES bushings, but my old bushings were worn and had over 100k on them.

Here is a pic:



excellent write up though (if i havent complimented in previous post)
Thanks... Was on vacation and it was a beautiful day outside.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
lOOkatme said:
the "dead coils" do nothing for ride quality. they are there to lower the car.
They really should. Coils that are more closely spaced will compress easier than coils that are further apart, even though they are made from the same material.

Here is an exageration, but should illustrate the point. Take a spring... It can be compressed... Now straighten it all of the way out so that it is like a staff/rod, and it will be much more difficult to compress.

So by changing the spacing between the coils, you should be able to essentially get a progressive springrate.


The springs are longer cause H&R knows how to engineer great springs. they want the spring to be compressed 100% of the time...even if you were to jump the car and the wheels come off the ground....the spring will still be compressed. unlike coilover sleeves and probably eibach prokit springs...which can be bad if you were to lift a wheel off the ground and come crashing down.
The H&Rs are definately quality... I should have gotten them from the beginning, but wasn't familiar with them at the time and Eibach was a name that I recognized.

However even with the eibachs, they were always compressed.


sway bars will help you with the body roll.
Yep :) I wanted to make sure that I had a good set of springs before screwing with sway bars... I'm of the mindset that the sway should complement the springs
 

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kommon_sense said:
They really should. Coils that are more closely spaced will compress easier than coils that are further apart, even though they are made from the same material.

Here is an exageration, but should illustrate the point. Take a spring... It can be compressed... Now straighten it all of the way out so that it is like a staff/rod, and it will be much more difficult to compress.

So by changing the spacing between the coils, you should be able to essentially get a progressive springrate.



The H&Rs are definately quality... I should have gotten them from the beginning, but wasn't familiar with them at the time and Eibach was a name that I recognized.

However even with the eibachs, they were always compressed.



Yep :) I wanted to make sure that I had a good set of springs before screwing with sway bars... I'm of the mindset that the sway should complement the springs

yes....I know coils spaced closer together compress easier. but those close coils together will actually just sit on top of each other compressed the whole time.

they are "dead coils" cause they don't do anything but take up space. they are what provide you with lowering the vehicle. thats why they are roughly the same length as the stock springs...but they lower the vehcile more....cause the "dead coils" just take up space and sit on top of each other.

its more apparent on race springs:)
 

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my prelude race springs.

the dead coils just take up space to keep the spring compressed.....
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I'll have to poke my head under there and look... Pretty sure that the "dead" coils aren't touching. I understand what you are saying, but seems like there would be better ways to engineer a spring. Would also make creating a progressive spring much more difficult.
 

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kommon_sense said:
I'll have to poke my head under there and look... Pretty sure that the "dead" coils aren't touching. I understand what you are saying, but seems like there would be better ways to engineer a spring. Would also make creating a progressive spring much more difficult.
they sit on top of each other on mine......touching each other.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Don't know if the cup kit was available when I did my suspension. About a year and a half ago, I installed koni yellows w/eibach pro-kits. In this write-up, I just swapped the pro-kits for some h&r sports. Wasn't looking to redo everything since I already had good shocks.

Also, on a side note, the h&r cup kit is basically revalved konis with a matching spring. Definately worth looking at if you need struts & springs.
 

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Sorry to revive the dead but i wanted to thank you on that awesome write-up. Thats a really interesting comparison. I've got H&R sports and i dont see why you would want to go with the eibachs. I've heard so so things about them and their even more expensive than the H&R's. I'm on bilstein struts(wish i woulda went with the koni's for $50 more, or cup-kit). But the ride isnt bad at all which is kinda what i was looking for.
 

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Just wanted to offer a slightly differing opinion...

Most so-called "progressive" springs have bushings between the different springrates that complete the full progressive spring. I installed custom shocks on my fourwheeler, that had 3 different springs on each shock--layered by bushings. These were 3 different springrates(and thickness?) made for different speed bumps. Depending on how fast the shock needs to compress and rebound, it can react with a combination of 3 variable/combineable springrates..

The H & R's do not work this way, as the different springrates within the spring are not really seperated; if not just dead-coils.

Here is a pic of some real "progressive" and "multi-rate" springs:



thanks for listening ;)

-P
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Those are not really progressive springs. I believe that they are called "Helper" springs. You get multiple springs with varying rates. The little guy helps keep tension on the big spring and soaks up the little bumps. I believe that ground control offers similar setups.
 

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tender springs
 

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After installing the H&Rs, I noticed that handling is very balanced, I have more steering and less body roll, so no real understeer problems. It will be interesting to see what happens with the 16mm rear in place


the reason for this if because the rear springs on the H&R sport springs are closer matched (spring rate wise) than the prokits. this accounts for more oversteer characteristics. Thats one thing I loved about my H&R race springs...cloesly matched springs for better oversteer characteristics.
 

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Common Sense...no pics of the car before/after? Damn :( .
I'm getting H&R's for the Nissan, one day :cry. Was
going to get Eibach's, (the pro-kit), but my Nissan has
a serious wheel gap problem in the front. Everything
I've read on the Nissan boards suggests that both are
fine products, but the H&R's are better for that extra
1/4 inch lower in the front.
What cheap, (non-adjustable), shocks would be cool
with those? I was looking at KYB's; any suggestions?
 

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BlueBallz said:
Common Sense...no pics of the car before/after? Damn :( .
I'm getting H&R's for the Nissan, one day :cry. Was
going to get Eibach's, (the pro-kit), but my Nissan has
a serious wheel gap problem in the front. Everything
I've read on the Nissan boards suggests that both are
fine products, but the H&R's are better for that extra
1/4 inch lower in the front.
What cheap, (non-adjustable), shocks would be cool
with those? I was looking at KYB's; any suggestions?
KYB's are good for the price, whyd you say non-adjustable though? KYB's are adjustable if you didnt know. Bilstein HD's are non-adjustable, their about $450 for a set though.
 
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