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ok this has never really been an issue to me but tonight my eyes were opened, i am interested in obtaining a ccl for the same reason as everyone else, ALSO i am confused as to the use of force laws, i have never been concerned with self preservation before, sure a fight here or there leaving bars at closing time, but tonight at my job i realized i NEED to consider it more seriously, i would never shoot someone unless i had to but can i draw on them to detain them until police arrive?? i had an issue tonight that would have called for it but instead the theives got away with alot of money out of our vending machines...... also if i KNOW the suspect has tools that can easly be used as weapons, how far am i legally allowed to go to defend myself before he is no longer the agressor?? say he tries to kill me, am i legally allowed to cripple him bad enough to need a EMT to save his life?? i just ask because i hear a bunch of horror stories about good people trying to save their own only to be sued
 

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ok this has never really been an issue to me but tonight my eyes were opened, i am interested in obtaining a ccl for the same reason as everyone else, ALSO i am confused as to the use of force laws, i have never been concerned with self preservation before, sure a fight here or there leaving bars at closing time, but tonight at my job i realized i NEED to consider it more seriously, i would never shoot someone unless i had to but can i draw on them to detain them until police arrive?? i had an issue tonight that would have called for it but instead the theives got away with alot of money out of our vending machines...... also if i KNOW the suspect has tools that can easly be used as weapons, how far am i legally allowed to go to defend myself before he is no longer the agressor?? say he tries to kill me, am i legally allowed to cripple him bad enough to need a EMT to save his life?? i just ask because i hear a bunch of horror stories about good people trying to save their own only to be sued
Basically...the firearm is for deadly force only. It is not see as injuring force. So the crippling thing goes out the window..you shoot to kill and nothing else. Plus, in a stress situation your aim will not be as true as you think it will be.>Either way, you can use deadly force to protect your life or the life of another person. You cannot use it to defend property. As far as what constitutes a weapon and the use of deadly force. The law falls on something called, "reasonable and prudent." Basically they will look at a situation and ask themselves if a reasonable and prudent person would believe what the person had could be used as a weapon and if there was a belief that their intent was to use it on you.

Now, you can draw on someone, but if they run that doesnt mean you can shoot them. If they decide to fight though, that changes things. But without a witness, if they charge you and you pop them one, you could be in for some trouble because they were unarmed. So pick your battles. losing some property from a vending machine is a hell of a lot better than going down for murder or possibly being over powered and having your gun taken away from you.
 

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it depends on your local state laws.

here in texas you can use deadly force to protect your home for an invader. that is when the intruder is in your home and was not invited. (this has happened 2 times already this year)

also, if the person leaves your home, and you believe that have somethinng of yours that you may never recover, you do have the right to use deadly force in texas. (last year a 19 year old kid got drunk, and he thought he was at his house which the back sliding door is broke and does not lock. he ended up at the wrong house which coincedentally the back sliding door was unlocked. he enterd the home. and suprised the home owner at 2 am. he then went running out of the back sliding door and out the side gate out onto the main street. the homeowner actually followed him out and beleived the kid had stolen something and he shot the 19 year old 2 houses down the street. 19 year old died on the street. cops considered it "justifiable". )

and im not 100% sure on this but i do believe in texas the same goes for a vehicle burglary.
 

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Basically...the firearm is for deadly force only. It is not see as injuring force. So the crippling thing goes out the window..you shoot to kill and nothing else. Plus, in a stress situation your aim will not be as true as you think it will be.>Either way, you can use deadly force to protect your life or the life of another person. You cannot use it to defend property. As far as what constitutes a weapon and the use of deadly force. The law falls on something called, "reasonable and prudent." Basically they will look at a situation and ask themselves if a reasonable and prudent person would believe what the person had could be used as a weapon and if there was a belief that their intent was to use it on you.

Now, you can draw on someone, but if they run that doesnt mean you can shoot them. If they decide to fight though, that changes things. But without a witness, if they charge you and you pop them one, you could be in for some trouble because they were unarmed. So pick your battles. losing some property from a vending machine is a hell of a lot better than going down for murder or possibly being over powered and having your gun taken away from you.
This is how I understand it to be, even in Colorado. I've already taken the class, so I just need to actually go and apply for the CCW. In Colorado, unlike Texas, you can defend your home only if you think your life is in danger. If someone breaks into your home and you catch him stealing your TV, you can't shoot him unless he is coming at you in an attacking manner. If he is running from you with his back to you, you're going down for Murder if you kill him, and probably attempted murder if you wound him. Better to replace a TV than to not be able to provide for and protect your family if you're in prison.

Also, I'm not sure quite what the actual laws are for detaining suspects, but personally I wouldn't draw unless my own or someone else's life is in danger. Don't point it unless you intend to use it (sort of the reason why it's not exactly smart to have a tactical light or laser attached to a handgun), because it could be a member of your family that you are aiming at.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
well i looked it up and in colorado it is an equal force law, basically once he decides the fight was a bad idea, you have to let up and let him go and pray to god he doesnt come back with his friends another day, honestly i kinda had the idea that you should not draw if you dont intend to fire, aka life threatening, just wanted to confirm
 

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ok this has never really been an issue to me but tonight my eyes were opened, i am interested in obtaining a ccl for the same reason as everyone else, ALSO i am confused as to the use of force laws, i have never been concerned with self preservation before, sure a fight here or there leaving bars at closing time, but tonight at my job i realized i NEED to consider it more seriously, i would never shoot someone unless i had to but
can i draw on them to detain them until police arrive??
Yes. Pointing it at them is okay if you are defending yourself from a possible attack, finger outside of the trigger guard. They are robbing the place. They aren't customers. This would be for self-defense and in this circumstance, it wouldn't be considered brandishing. If they run, they run. You don't want to shoot them.

... i had an issue tonight that would have called for it but instead the theives got away with alot of money out of our vending machines...... also if i KNOW the suspect has tools that can easly be used as weapons, how far am i legally allowed to go to defend myself before he is no longer the agressor??
If they attack you and you are in danger of death AND seriously bodily injury, you can blow them away. If a guy has a gun and starts pointing it at you, you don't have to let him have the first shot. You can shoot him. If he has a knife, bat, crowbar, whatever blunt object, it's not really a threat from 20 feet away and he's just standing there. If he's running at you and ready to strike, this is an attack. If they run away, they run away. You can't shoot them while fleeing, even if they have a ton of money.

say he tries to kill me, am i legally allowed to cripple him bad enough to need a EMT to save his life??
Why cripple? Does he want to maim you or kill you? He said he was trying to kill you. Once you are in danger of death or seriously physical injury, just shoot him until the aggression stops. I would suggest aiming for the middle of the torso area. You are more likely to miss if you aim for his hand or foot or a small target. If you've been target shooting, trying to hit a small target is a challenge. Think about skeet shooting with a pistol, yeah, pretty much impossible to hit the clay bird. If he has a knife and he charges at you, if you shot his foot right at point black range, do you think you will still get stabbed? The answer is yes.

i just ask because i hear a bunch of horror stories about good people trying to save their own only to be sued
It depends, just because you get sued doesn't mean they win in court. Thugs will sue the cops because of a botched car jacking and they tried to kill the cop with the car (true story). If you are not arrested or convicted in a shooting because it was self-protection in a criminal court, you most likely won't lose a civil court case.
 

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Be very careful. Not to discount what any of these guys have to say (especially Kevin being LEO) but consequences in either direction are drastic (as in you don't draw; you die or you draw and fire unlawfully). Get to know your laws. Research, research, train, research some more and train some more.

Ignore that bullshit about someone not being a threat from 20 feet. Anyone who has been around will know what the 21 foot rule is, you would be surprised how fast a motherfucker can cover 21 feet. If someone has the intent and means and you're in doubt about possibly losing control of the situation then draw, its worth the chance on a brandishing charge that'll get thrown out of court anyway. Always remember "I was in fear for my life". It goes without saying that you can consider these nothing more than my personal viewpoints that I've come to terms with and apply to my specific situation.
 

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I saw this when fartbomber posted up and meant to close it. while its good to talk about guns, I would hate for this to go south and have bad info spread. Always consult with your local and state laws when you Open Carry or Conceal Carry. some states allow you to OC without a license others do. I know there is 1 state which allows OC and CC without a license. PA you can OC without a license anywhere that is not a class 1 city. Philadelphia is the only class 1 city in PA. I would highly suggest attending a CC class whether your state requires it or not.

BE RESPONSIBLE. only pull the gun if your life or the life of another is in immediate danger. its not a toy, don't parade the fact you carry around. if you CC don't half ass it, hide it so the gun is not printing.

Join a website about CC and gun laws. like Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association learn as much as you can the best way to keep yourself out of trouble is knowing the law better then the cop holding you up because he saw you OC'ing or saw your gun printing.

and about the 20 foot thing. 20 feet is nothing, in my opinion if they are threatening me from 20 feet away with a weapon and I believe my life to be in danger, I'm drawing my gun. if you don't know the 21ft rule learn it. be aware of your surroundings, it could mean life or death.


in case you didn't know.

printing = outline of gun shows through the clothing.
 
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