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your confusing reliable with complication....hondas are more reliable but not less complicated....especially when you start talkign obd2 hondas... an awd turbo dsm isn't more complicated than an obd2 dohc vtec honda. look at a 1997 gsr vs 1997 eclipse gsx....you think a stage intake manifold, map sensor car with variable valve time electronic lift control is less complicated and easier to mod/tune than a dsm? they're map cars on top of that and have to store multiple maps for there vtec system to work properly where as with a dsm or nissan with the same feature the ecu just sees more air through the system and adjusts accordingly....
 

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As both of my dsm's and my civic are 95's, i know nothing of the obd2 systems.
I may very well be confusing motor "complexity" with reliability and simplicity, as i am by no means an expert. i was just stating what i have noted thus far working on both cars/motors.
from what i have experienced, however, Dsm's especially seem to have complicated methods of doing the same things a honda does with less parts.
My b16 has simply a distributor, where as my dsm's had cam angle sensors and crank sensors working in cojunction.
My b16 only has a couple vacuum lines, where my dsm's had at least ten.
Dsm's have wires running to EVERYTHING. they are an electrical nightmare waiting to happen.
These excess wires cause serious headaches and almost permanent CEL's.
"where as with a dsm or nissan with the same feature the ecu just sees more air through the system and adjusts accordingly...."
this is true, but the stock system will only allow so much air before it cuts fuel. this is unfortunately around 16psi (2g's run 14lbs factory!) if memory serves me right.
There is also a tonn more room in my honda engine bay, making life much easier. maintenance is much easier and much less expensive, which is the primary reason i purchased the car. As i have very little/no experience in serious tuning i cannot say which is easier to tune, though it seems that honda guys just throw in chipped ecu's and they're all set, where as dsm's dont have that luxury, they need to use dsmlink(very expensive) or safc's and hope that they are karman compatible(i purchased an apexi neo...of course, not compatible with karman sensors, which the dsm employs.)
Anyways, i'm not a fan of arguing, especially with something i dont know the full answer too, so ill shutup while i can, lol. Go honda! haha
 

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you forget, or not realizing, since your dsm is turbo, it requires a lot more support to run it properly, such as the extra vacuum lines. also, take into consideration, even the "performance :p" B16 is still made with economy on the list for the motor. hence making it simpler to work on, though potentially harder to get smooth


its comparing apples to oranges
 

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You are correct, it is comparing apples to oranges.
Thats why i told the original poster to not feel bad about getting beat out by a dsm, because the cars are like apples and oranges. i would know as ive owned 3 dsm's and currently own an n2o fed honda.
My personal experiences have led to me to believe hondas are simpler motors, less goes wrong and they are easier to work on/work with. thats all i meant by that, if i mistated something, i apologize.
 

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correct on seeing them as a more simple setup, no apology needed :tu
 
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