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Discussion Starter #1
Hey kiddos, I just picked up my s12 last night, and definitely have my work cut out for me on this one. The goal is to build the simplest daily driver possible, while retaining IRS and proper handling.

Cliff's Notes:
$900 shell, mostly rust-free. Complete, but needs some repair.
Included an r32 lsd, I was told... I'm betting they meant z32. The previous owner didn't know a whole lot about this.
$500 ka24de, includes 5speed.
$150 bst38ss carbs (early 90's Suzuki GSXR 750)
My old 240z wheels

Because everyone will ask for them, a couple pics:





On the cutting block right now:
  • Figure out how to control ignition on the ka24de without an ecu (Megajolt Lite Jr plus Ford EDIS, vac advance distributor from another engine, or build a mechanical advance distributor).
  • Coarse tuning for the bst38ss carbs. They are currently jetted for a 0.75liter engine, and I'm moving up to a 2.4liter engine.
  • Try to get the ca20e running just so the car can get around on its own power for now.
  • Get 4 lug nuts on every wheel.
  • Replace the exhaust with a proper exhaust (right now it's ~1.25" back until it gets to a massive fart can).
  • Replace the front fenders, they're badly rotted at the bottom.
  • Replace the ignition switch.
  • Build an aluminum dash.
  • Replace the rear-passenger's window (anyone want to sell one, or a hinge?).
  • Fix the hack-job rear quarter rust repair.
  • Find more problems to fix.
  • Relocate battery to the rear.
  • Gut interior.
Since I did some more research, I think I'm selling off the ka24de with the 5speed and using an sr20de instead. If you know anyone who'd be interested in a compression-tested ka24de, let me know!
 

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you want to carb a fi engine why??

If its a daily driver, FI = more reliability/quicker starts

either way, cool car.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
you want to carb a fi engine why??

If its a daily driver, FI = more reliability/quicker starts

either way, cool car.
FI = pain in the ass (and expensive) to retune if any mods have been done, difficult/expensive to diagnose issues.

Carb = Straightforward tuning (install new main jets for coarse tuning, adjust floats for different mixtures, turn idle mixture needle for idle), diagnosing problems is as easy as disassembling and looking at parts. With your eyes. Also, ITB throttle response, and costs less than the stock ECU.

... and drops weight.

I'm starting with the stock sr20de with EFI, and fab an intake manifold over the winter to install the carbs in the spring (they'll be easier to get a coarse tune when it's warm out, once I have a base tune adjusting for winter will be easy).
 

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Depending on the mods you make your point is valid. They are easy to tune, and tuning carbs is kinda a dying art. However, I guess if this is a daily driver, I wouldn't want it. It's always a struggle to get a carbed anything to start when cold, especially up here where it gets Really cold, like in the dead of winter. I don't like spending 20min, standing outside with a heat gun pointed @ the carb, playing with the choke and throttle before the damn thing decides to start, but maybe thats just me. If I wanted something reliable that started every time I'd still go FI.
 

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I want that S12, I just don't have room / space for another project atm.

In like a year maybe, then I'd buy his.
 

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Since I did some more research, I think I'm selling off the ka24de with the 5speed and using an sr20de instead. If you know anyone who'd be interested in a compression-tested ka24de, let me know!
why an sr20de? you won't have to worry about retuning an actual sr20det swap or any of the rb-swaps since they are maf cars. screw carbed 4 cyls lol.


and since when do you have a 1994 bmw?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
One at a time, kiddos.

Depending on the mods you make your point is valid. They are easy to tune, and tuning carbs is kinda a dying art. However, I guess if this is a daily driver, I wouldn't want it. It's always a struggle to get a carbed anything to start when cold, especially up here where it gets Really cold, like in the dead of winter. I don't like spending 20min, standing outside with a heat gun pointed @ the carb, playing with the choke and throttle before the damn thing decides to start, but maybe thats just me. If I wanted something reliable that started every time I'd still go FI.
I agree, if carbs aren't tuned right they're a bitch in the winter. It gets pretty cold out here in Western Mass, we see a foot or three of snow in a couple storms every winter.

If it's tuned correctly with the right-sized jets, it's just a matter of pulling the choke and turning the key. I know quite a few people who start up their motorcycles every week during the winter in unheated garages, and it's not an issue for any of them. It all breaks down to the amount of tuning you're willing to do and the tolerances you'll allow.

jesus fuck i want an s12 sometimes. its almost like an 86 but with out the initial d tax
It looks like an ae86, but has independent rear suspension instead of a solid axle as well as engines with proper displacement as options (like the vg30).

I want that S12, I just don't have room / space for another project atm.

In like a year maybe, then I'd buy his.
I don't have space for this either. That's why I'm renting another garage.

if jesus could find the title, id give it serious thought. i just dont want to deal with that headache.
This didn't come with a title. NH doesn't care at all.

why an sr20de? you won't have to worry about retuning an actual sr20det swap or any of the rb-swaps since they are maf cars. screw carbed 4 cyls lol.

and since when do you have a 1994 bmw?
I'm hooked on the idea of using these carbs. They'll handle forced induction, since I have positive pressure inlets in the top-hats, but carbs just aren't that efficient when you start trying to balance different levels of vac and pressure on opposite sides of a rubber diaphragm.

The sr20de is cheap as dirt and will meet my 200whp goal easily. The sr20det isn't so cheap, and has gotten to the point where I can call it cliche. The rb ... well, I just don't like the rb. It's undersquare, it's heavy in comparison, and many of them have variable valve timing, which I don't want. Remember: simple tunability is the primary goal. Two cams is about as far as I want to go.

I've had the e36 for about 6 months. I loathe it. I can't wait to sell it, once the s12 is on the road.
 

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One at a time, kiddos.



I agree, if carbs aren't tuned right they're a bitch in the winter. It gets pretty cold out here in Western Mass, we see a foot or three of snow in a couple storms every winter.

If it's tuned correctly with the right-sized jets, it's just a matter of pulling the choke and turning the key. I know quite a few people who start up their motorcycles every week during the winter in unheated garages, and it's not an issue for any of them. It all breaks down to the amount of tuning you're willing to do and the tolerances you'll allow.



It looks like an ae86, but has independent rear suspension instead of a solid axle as well as engines with proper displacement as options (like the vg30).



I don't have space for this either. That's why I'm renting another garage.



This didn't come with a title. NH doesn't care at all.



I'm hooked on the idea of using these carbs. They'll handle forced induction, since I have positive pressure inlets in the top-hats, but carbs just aren't that efficient when you start trying to balance different levels of vac and pressure on opposite sides of a rubber diaphragm.

The sr20de is cheap as dirt and will meet my 200whp goal easily. The sr20det isn't so cheap, and has gotten to the point where I can call it cliche. The rb ... well, I just don't like the rb. It's undersquare, it's heavy in comparison, and many of them have variable valve timing, which I don't want. Remember: simple tunability is the primary goal. Two cams is about as far as I want to go.

I've had the e36 for about 6 months. I loathe it. I can't wait to sell it, once the s12 is on the road.
sr20det can be had for 700 bucks.......and you already have the tranny so you're good.
and i just never liked carbed 4cyles...and 200whp? out of an sr20de? i hope you mean with FI...because if you're talking all motor...not gonna happen unless you use a neo vvl head

why do you hate the e36? i like it more than my s13 at this point. takes about 100 bucks to tune it and will take over 400rwhp reliably
 

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Discussion Starter #14
sr20det can be had for 700 bucks.......and you already have the tranny so you're good.
and i just never liked carbed 4cyles...and 200whp? out of an sr20de? i hope you mean with FI...because if you're talking all motor...not gonna happen unless you use a neo vvl head
Sounds like a challenge to me. All motor 200whp sr20de is entirely possible without variable anything. It'll take some time to get it fine-tuned enough to be at that level, but here's the plan as it sits in my head (and on paper):
  • SR16ve pistons (12.0:1 [requires e85 or 96/100 octane, depending on timing])
  • Balanced Ti valvetrain (~.5 oversized valves, valve springs to match cams)
  • Knife edge crank
  • Cams (JWT C2, perhaps? 275/275, 12.7mm lift... have to check piston clearances and possibly remove some material, lowering the compression ratio slightly)
  • Megajolt Lite Jr ignition control (either Ford EDIS4 or sr20det coil-on-plug, allows for fine resolution based on a custom CAS)
  • rings/bearings/hone; Just a basic, quality refresh as required
  • Lightened flywheel (10-15lbs, haven't gone shopping yet so I don't know what my options are)
  • Somewhat burly clutch to handle the increased power
  • 12.5:1 AFR (I'm sure this will need to be adjusted, but that seems to be the sweet spot for coarse tuning)
  • Aluminum driveshaft
  • 14x7.5 rear wheels with 225/50-14 tires (TBD)
  • S15 Torsen LSD (already installed)
why do you hate the e36? i like it more than my s13 at this point. takes about 100 bucks to tune it and will take over 400rwhp reliably
There's no option for manual windows, too much weight is too high up on the car, it feels big and bulky when driving, many of the bushings undergo unnecessary stress because they were engineered poorly, the rear subframe is weak and often shears, the climate controls are silly electronic potentiometers that fail often, the sound dampening is excessively difficult to get to, the seats are prohibitively complex and expensive (7-way adjustable seats? seriously?), there are three computers that control my two windows, the clutch is nonstandard and tries to adjust itself so you can't tell when it's worn and can't replace it with a standard clutch, the headlight adjusters are flimsy plastic and break far too often, the engine is heavy, even for a steel block, the transmission mounts are weak and allow the transmission to shift under heavy loads, causing a mis-shift into 3rd instead of 5th, the onboard display is inaccurate and ultimately useless, the power locks are inconsistent and do not have a direct manual replacement, and the sunroof assembly weighs more than I do.

So there are my reasons. I can put a 400whp engine into any chassis. Right now, all I want is a chassis that won't be in my way of fixing and improving a car I call my daily driver. There are things that I like about it, but they don't come close to weighing in against all the things I disapprove of and can't fix easily.
 

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i wasn't saying vvl head for vvt. i was saying vvl head for the head flow to achieve such numbers and to retain somewhat of a streetable powerband. is this a track car or just a street car? and that car will barely be streetable lol. and it's not really complicated since the way the nissan vvl works is slightly different than honda in that the ecu sees more air and adjusts accordingly, not have multiple maps and other parameters that need to be switched to and from for it to work, to me it's personally not as complicated as the honda ecu mapping even though they are the same technology. and they have real time tuning for ease of use with such setups. i think you have a great game plan and good luck. that just sounds like a ridiculous amount of time and work to possibly reach 200rwhp on a mustang dyno, then again with sr16 pistons anything is possible. i do know that with some sr16 cams and a vvl head would make your life a little easier :p i understand that you do want the challenge though.


as far as the e36. I have there is a guy running 12's all motor with a non m3 with a lot of weight savings on one of the forums. he got the car down to 2500 lbs and i totally agree with you on the RB situation though i just wasn't sure what you're actual goals were hence my questions. but i have found a lot of suspension replacement stuff at an affordable price to address bushing issues and suspension issues that are right around what it costs to do the equal mods to an s-chassis.

p.s what color is your car and are you selling it?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
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i wasn't saying vvl head for vvt. i was saying vvl head for the head flow to achieve such numbers and to retain somewhat of a streetable powerband. is this a track car or just a street car? and that car will barely be streetable lol. and it's not really complicated since the way the nissan vvl works is slightly different than honda in that the ecu sees more air and adjusts accordingly, not have multiple maps and other parameters that need to be switched to and from for it to work, to me it's personally not as complicated as the honda ecu mapping even though they are the same technology. and they have real time tuning for ease of use with such setups. i think you have a great game plan and good luck. that just sounds like a ridiculous amount of time and work to possibly reach 200rwhp on a mustang dyno, then again with sr16 pistons anything is possible. i do know that with some sr16 cams and a vvl head would make your life a little easier :p i understand that you do want the challenge though.


as far as the e36. I have there is a guy running 12's all motor with a non m3 with a lot of weight savings on one of the forums. he got the car down to 2500 lbs and i totally agree with you on the RB situation though i just wasn't sure what you're actual goals were hence my questions. but i have found a lot of suspension replacement stuff at an affordable price to address bushing issues and suspension issues that are right around what it costs to do the equal mods to an s-chassis.

p.s what color is your car and are you selling it?
e36
The BMW is green with flat black over all the surface rust cleanup I performed. Right now it needs these polyurethane RTABs I have installed, and it's 100% mechanically pristine. Other than gutting it, there isn't too much more I can do to improve performance on this. Bilsteins and H&R sport springs, m3 cams, a quad-clutch 3.15 lsd diff, and z3 wheels round it out pretty well, but I'm just unhappy with it. 2500lbs is totally unacceptable for a car that's had any lightening done to it.

I can buy a full kit of polyurethane bushings for an s-chassis for $75 through Energy Suspension. Nobody even makes a full bushing kit for the e36, but rear trailing arm bushings start at $50 for cheapo generic eBay ones. Good ones are closer to $150 (Rogue Engineering). I'm not sure how you can compare the two.

I'll sell it at the drop of a hat. The first offer that covers the brand new parts and tires on it can have it today.

s12
As for the goals on the s12, 200whp is just a number out of a hat. I hope to get it below one ton, and a small, lightweight aluminum 4cylinder seems to be the best thing I can do in the engine bay. Even if I end up closer to 150whp, it'll be a very happy place for this car to be. I'm far less concerned about the powertrain, much more concerned about handling and efficiency (doing some quick calculations, I should average ~45mpg on a lightly lean tune running e85).

I'm also big on ease of maintenance. Everything I've seen indicates that the s12 is an obscenely simple chassis, and parts cost virtually nothing. I obviously need to do more research on head options. Maybe I'll just pick up a spare motor to rebuild for "phase 2" of this project and use the VVL head on that.

Right now, I'm trying to secure a garage right across the street from my house so I have somewhere to get all this done. Pics to come once I've located the landlord who isn't using it.
 

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done



e36
The BMW is green with flat black over all the surface rust cleanup I performed. Right now it needs these polyurethane RTABs I have installed, and it's 100% mechanically pristine. Other than gutting it, there isn't too much more I can do to improve performance on this. Bilsteins and H&R sport springs, m3 cams, a quad-clutch 3.15 lsd diff, and z3 wheels round it out pretty well, but I'm just unhappy with it. 2500lbs is totally unacceptable for a car that's had any lightening done to it.

I can buy a full kit of polyurethane bushings for an s-chassis for $75 through Energy Suspension. Nobody even makes a full bushing kit for the e36, but rear trailing arm bushings start at $50 for cheapo generic eBay ones. Good ones are closer to $150 (Rogue Engineering). I'm not sure how you can compare the two.

I'll sell it at the drop of a hat. The first offer that covers the brand new parts and tires on it can have it today.
true but i get ridic cheapo hookups. my ecu tuning alone is 100 dollars. as far as bushing kits. i was more referring like sway bar kits that come with all the associated bushings etc at an affordable price. but in all honestly my full turbo kit alone won't cost me more than 2800 dollars while other bmw tards are spending 8700+ for 220whp :fear
tally up the price to cover the new parts and i might be able to throw you an offer. right now i have a 1995 325is fully loaded that the owner wants 2500 for. it has 97K miles on it.

s12
As for the goals on the s12, 200whp is just a number out of a hat. I hope to get it below one ton, and a small, lightweight aluminum 4cylinder seems to be the best thing I can do in the engine bay. Even if I end up closer to 150whp, it'll be a very happy place for this car to be. I'm far less concerned about the powertrain, much more concerned about handling and efficiency (doing some quick calculations, I should average ~45mpg on a lightly lean tune running e85).

I'm also big on ease of maintenance. Everything I've seen indicates that the s12 is an obscenely simple chassis, and parts cost virtually nothing. I obviously need to do more research on head options. Maybe I'll just pick up a spare motor to rebuild for "phase 2" of this project and use the VVL head on that.

Right now, I'm trying to secure a garage right across the street from my house so I have somewhere to get all this done. Pics to come once I've located the landlord who isn't using it.
i like how you think. the guy that builds my car just did his s13 with with the vvl head and itb's with spa5000s turbo




http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs004.ash2/33580_434603158229_665698229_5155348_8215122_n.jpg
i kind of like this idea in a clean stockish looking s13 for a little weekend warrior. just found out i'm getting a promotion and a raise. he knows a redic amount about the s-chassis and nissan engines. i got his number if you ever want to runs hit by him. he could probably let you know which parts on your build list will achieve your goals and which will prolly be a big waste of time
 

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Discussion Starter #19
true but i get ridic cheapo hookups. my ecu tuning alone is 100 dollars. as far as bushing kits. i was more referring like sway bar kits that come with all the associated bushings etc at an affordable price. but in all honestly my full turbo kit alone won't cost me more than 2800 dollars while other bmw tards are spending 8700+ for 220whp :fear
tally up the price to cover the new parts and i might be able to throw you an offer. right now i have a 1995 325is fully loaded that the owner wants 2500 for. it has 97K miles on it.
Do it. I've got $1k into suspension and half that into tires, alone.

i like how you think. the guy that builds my car just did his s13 with with the vvl head and itb's with spa5000s turbo

i kind of like this idea in a clean stockish looking s13 for a little weekend warrior. just found out i'm getting a promotion and a raise. he knows a redic amount about the s-chassis and nissan engines. i got his number if you ever want to runs hit by him. he could probably let you know which parts on your build list will achieve your goals and which will prolly be a big waste of time
That sounds like an awesome idea. I have so little s-chassis specific knowledge it's pathetic, but I have tons of other real-world experience with several other platforms.

ITB's and a turbo are a little counterproductive, the ITB setup only offers SLIGHTLY more consistent cross-cylinder pressures. We did this on a few l28et and rb26dett setups, and the only real advantage we saw was being able to tune our runner lengths.
 

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Do it. I've got $1k into suspension and half that into tires, alone.



That sounds like an awesome idea. I have so little s-chassis specific knowledge it's pathetic, but I have tons of other real-world experience with several other platforms.
i'm going that same route with my bimmer. suspension and tires. even considering selling my type 66's and using them to fund a nice aftermarket wheels in the 17x9-17x8.5 range of wheels around 16 lbs each would be nice. then tighten up the suspension and bushings all around. then focus on the motor. prolly only gonna aim for 330 rwhp and leave it there for a while. i know other guys are hitting well over 400whp on the stock motor with no issue but we will see

ITB's and a turbo are a little counterproductive, the ITB setup only offers SLIGHTLY more consistent cross-cylinder pressures. We did this on a few l28et and rb26dett setups, and the only real advantage we saw was being able to tune our runner lengths.
the itb's aren't for more power. they wanted more transient throttle response with the setup, he does his own anti-lag and two-step tunes. i drove his old setup which was itb's and a vgt turbo...made over 500 hp on a 2.1 liter
 
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