[BlueBallz]

OK, since I've lowered my car, ('95 Delsol Si), and added a
rear 19mm Neuspeed sway-bar, my car has some serious
oversteer when I "get-on-it" in the turns. The first time I
spun it 360 degrees more than twice before stopping, (but
that was my fault, I think). The second, just recently, the
tail-end slipped out just as I was clearing the turn, so it
was cool: like an arcade game . But it's not cool, since
this is my BABY.
Now, my stock Si front sway-bar is 21mm; my question is:
would a Delsol "Vtec" sway-bar, (24mm), "bolt-on"? From
what I've read, this may help. The OEM part's cheap as
dirt compared to aftermarket, and even with added
polyurathane fittings, it's still cheaper. Any help?

 

[kommon_sense]

Your best bet would probably be to get a smaller rear bar. Can you use the 13mm rear from the Civic SI?

 

[BlueBallz]

Well, they sell the stock "vtec" rear swaybar, which is 15mm,
which means I wasted my money on the Neuspeed 19mm
. Still, I'd rather not spend more money on that and
get rid of the Neuspeed, and the extra "beef" up front
couldn't hurt. Will it fit, though? They look the same,
(the Si and the "vtec's"). Most manufacturers design their
cars for understeer, right? So the combo I'm thinking about/
wanting might be "just" perfect. Of course, if I got the 15mm
to begin with, the ratio would be close to the same. Any
suggestions, answers, besides driving slower ?

 

[PseudoRealityX]

id upgrade the front. thats the better idea in terms of ultimate grip.

however, im willing to bet that most of your oversteer problems are driver related

 

[lOOkatme]

I would upgrade the front.......you will notice it will tuck into corners easy with the front and rear sway bar combo.

 

[BlueBallz]

Thanks for the replies. PseudoRealityX , the first time,
(spinout), I HAD to brake, which caused the spin, oversteer.
The second time, well, I was going too fast for the car's
setup, and that's what I'm trying to correct. I'll just "take
it easy" for awhile, I guess, until I get everything "right" .
I'll e-mail HAP tomorrow; they'd know for sure. Thanks.

 

[shorthand]

This sounds like snap oversteer, which I would concentrate on solving quickly as its pretty dangerous on the streets, esp. in a FWD car.

On stock springs, the addition of a 19mm rear bar shouldn't make the car that tail happy. What are your lowering springs? What are the rates?

Also, what kind of shocks are you running on?

I have to debate PSX a little in his claim that a bigger front bar will mean more grip - you'll probalby handle pretty well either by growing the front bar or shrinking the rear one. The stiffer front will mean sharper turn-in, though, no question.

Something tells me that you aren't running a front toe-out alignment to really make turn in as quick as possible.

Did you get the car aligned after you dropped it?

In the meantime, try lowering your front tire pressure - that should help the problem. What kind of wheels and tires are you running?

 

[BlueBallz]

"snap" oversteer?

This sounds like snap oversteer, which I would concentrate on solving quickly as its pretty dangerous on the streets, esp. in a FWD car.

On stock springs, the addition of a 19mm rear bar shouldn't make the car that tail happy. What are your lowering springs? What are the rates?

Also, what kind of shocks are you running on?

I have to debate PSX a little in his claim that a bigger front bar will mean more grip - you'll probalby handle pretty well either by growing the front bar or shrinking the rear one. The stiffer front will mean sharper turn-in, though, no question.

Something tells me that you aren't running a front toe-out alignment to really make turn in as quick as possible.

Did you get the car aligned after you dropped it?

In the meantime, try lowering your front tire pressure - that should help the problem. What kind of wheels and tires are you running?

Hey, I've got Skunk2's, (don't know the rate, but they're
damn stiff, for sure), and Tokico illuminas set to "5". I had
an alignment recently: the "dood" said it's perfect for
"handling", (after he put the "ghetto-tune" on the rear
with some shims), but the front was still out, like 1.6 or something.
He said I'd need a camber kit to get it to within "factory specs". Here's a pic:

IMO, it's definately not "slammed", although I've read how
lowering your car will add to oversteer, but it handles better
than ever, except for those few "occurrences". Like hitting a
highway off-ramp doing 70mph, slight turn, bump...damn tail
end feels like...shit! I don't know how to describe it. I have
15" RacingHart CP-035's with Nitto 450's. I want/my next set
will be either Bridgestone Potenza's or BFGoodrich KD's(?).
The wheel/tires were a "package deal", and I had a real
"hard-on" for those wheels. It could be the tires, maybe,
but, in Nitto's "defense", I didn't hear or "notice" ANY loss
of grip until the instant I braked, (in the first instance).
But, I'm an addict, just like you, obviously! My Bro, (my
REAL brother ), gave me a "ride" in his '83 280Z yes-
terday, and the ONLY thing that "saved his ass" on two
"flamboyant" turns was his, (or it's), RWD. FWD cars
SUCK for turns, because, when you "lose it", you're lost.
BTW, he bought it for $500.00! And, he's complaining,
to ME, about the $20-50 dollar "mods" he's had to add.
Some FUCKS just don't know how good they got it! I
would've "reminded" him of this, but he's got 5 kids and
a "bitch-ass" wife, (NOT my words ), so I count MY blessings....

 

[lOOkatme]

buy a front sway bar....the turn in is amazing...it just TUCKS into corners...you will have better response and quicker turn ins.

buy one now!

 

[PseudoRealityX]

This sounds like snap oversteer, which I would concentrate on solving quickly as its pretty dangerous on the streets, esp. in a FWD car.

On stock springs, the addition of a 19mm rear bar shouldn't make the car that tail happy. What are your lowering springs? What are the rates?

Also, what kind of shocks are you running on?

I have to debate PSX a little in his claim that a bigger front bar will mean more grip - you'll probalby handle pretty well either by growing the front bar or shrinking the rear one. The stiffer front will mean sharper turn-in, though, no question.

Something tells me that you aren't running a front toe-out alignment to really make turn in as quick as possible.

Did you get the car aligned after you dropped it?

In the meantime, try lowering your front tire pressure - that should help the problem. What kind of wheels and tires are you running?

If matched correctly to spring rates, the front sway bar will allow you to have less static negitive camber, and therefore, have more traction available over a larger area of the traction circle.

Thats my take on it at least

 

[BlueBallz]

Thanks PseudoRealityX and lOOkatme , I think it'd
be good, and I don't want to "downgrade" the rear, so I'll
definately check it out. Thanks to shorthand too. I'll
always be "gleaning" .

 

[gotboost?]

a better set of tires wouldn't hurt.

 

[PseudoRealityX]

a better set of tires wouldn't hurt.

actually, it could

he may have snap oversteer at a higher threshold with more grip, meaning he's got more energy when he hits a tree.

 

[shorthand]

If matched correctly to spring rates, the front sway bar will allow you to have less static negitive camber, and therefore, have more traction available over a larger area of the traction circle.

Thats my take on it at least

Of course, we must remember that Jesse lives in McPherson strut-land. (j/k)

I was hoping you'd have adjustable shocks. Try softening your rear shocks compared to your front - that may solve your problem relatively quickly. (Are these Illuminas double-adjustable? If so, you're looking to soften the rear rebound.) What happens is that the inside rear wheel gets picked up if the rebound is too stiff.

Do you know where your rear camber landed? On my 2000 Civic, the camber specs are (-1)-1 deg in the front and 0-(-2) in the rear. I expect that your specs are very similar. IMO, you're probably OK in terms of front camber, tire wear due to -1.6 deg camber will be noticable, but not unacceptable IMO.

However, If your rear camber is substantally less than your front, that could be a major cause of your oversteer. I'd also like to know there the alignment shop put the front and rear toe. Its pretty easy to make the car too "twitchy" for street use with overly agressive rear toe settings. For the moment, aim to match your front and rear cambers (or have slightly more rear camber.)

Finally - I will recommend doing what I did when I first made my car able to oversteer - go learn to drive it better by participating in an Autocross or two. You can bring the tail back in - but it takes some practice. (At that point you will be addicted anyhoo.) The people present should be able to assist you in tuning your car - which will help you tune it for street use also.

The wheels were a good choice IMO - well worth living with the Nittos for a while.

 

[PseudoRealityX]

umm, check out what the STS honda guys are running for camber... i doubt there is anyone fast with less than 1.7 static at either end. Thats going to sacrifice straightline, especially when braking.

And pciking up a rear tire is NOT bad for traction... although i dont want to go through that arguement again either.

 

[shorthand]

Having the shock pick up the rear tire in a transition is very different than having the spring do it in a near steady-state.

A stiffer rebound in the rear should cause temporary weight transfer to the front in a transition, which can snap the tail out. Is that a more agreeable explanation.

Remember our first priority is to make Blue's car safe on the street.

 

[BlueBallz]

STS?

umm, check out what the STS honda guys are running for camber... i doubt there is anyone fast with less than 1.7 static at either end. Thats going to sacrifice straightline, especially when braking.

And pciking up a rear tire is NOT bad for traction... although i dont want to go through that arguement again either.

Hey man, I don't really care about "straightline" anyway,
(since it's a D16, and even with FI, it's pretty "weak", comparatively speaking ); the turns are "where all the FUN
is", anyway . "Especially when braking" has me concerned, though, even though I've done everything possible to the
brake system short of a big-brake upgrade. This bitch will
stop on a dime; of course, I don't push it that often, so
brake fade's not an issue, although I think my "setup" could handle it.
Also, shorthand , I was thinking at work last night
about this SOLO stuff. I'm sure my car'd be "unqualifiable",
but just having an accurate "track time" would be good, and,
like you said, knowledgable people, RIGHT THERE, checking/
adjusting/advising for FREE would be awesome. Even if none
of that happened, just checkin' you bastards run would be
worth it . How can I get more info?
PS - How soft in the rears? "4"? "3"? Haven't really f#cked
with the rebound yet, since the car's so fun where it's at.
BTW, in both instances, it was definately "steady-state" turns,
no transitions; I flipped out, (spun), the instant I braked, on
the first; I think I was going too fast on the second, (but I sure
as hell wasn't going to brake ).

 

[BlueBallz]

actually, it could

he may have snap oversteer at a higher threshold with more grip, meaning he's got more energy when he hits a tree.

Haha! I'm not that crazy...that spinout was a "fluke" . I've
been reaserching the tire "area" since then, and either
Bridgestone Potenza's or BFGoodrich G-Force KD's will be
my next set. Probably the Bridgestone's, since their
performance is comparable and the noise level is lower.

 

[shorthand]

Re: STS?

Hey man, I don't really care about "straightline" anyway,
(since it's a D16, and even with FI, it's pretty "weak", comparatively speaking ); the turns are "where all the FUN
is", anyway . "Especially when braking" has me concerned, though, even though I've done everything possible to the
brake system short of a big-brake upgrade. This bitch will
stop on a dime; of course, I don't push it that often, so
brake fade's not an issue, although I think my "setup" could handle it.

PSX is talking about the braking. Too much camber will ruin your braking distances (you also have to be very careful with the wheel when braking, as it will get out of hand quickly).

A big brake upgrade won't do anything if you can't put that force to the ground.

Also, shorthand, I was thinking at work last night
about this SOLO stuff. I'm sure my car'd be "unqualifiable",
but just having an accurate "track time" would be good, and,
like you said, knowledgable people, RIGHT THERE, checking/
adjusting/advising for FREE would be awesome. Even if none
of that happened, just checkin' you bastards run would be
worth it . How can I get more info?

PSX is a much more competitive Solo II competitor than I. As long as your car is safe, there's a class for it. Your car will be in a very tough class - SM2 - so don't expect to be competitive, but the point is to learn to drive better in the first place. If you get addicted to Solo II, then you can start worrying about picking a class and being competitive in it - I'm not even there yet.

To start, search google for the keyword autocross and the nearest big city. If that doesn't work, go to the SCCA website and drill your way down to your region.

PS - How soft in the rears? "4"? "3"? Haven't really f#cked with the rebound yet, since the car's so fun where it's at.
BTW, in both instances, it was definately "steady-state" turns,
no transitions; I flipped out, (spun), the instant I braked, on
the first; I think I was going too fast on the second, (but I sure
as hell wasn't going to brake ).

OK, the rebound is where you do most of your playing. The compression is a factor simply of your spring rate and car weight. There is an optimum and then you don't tweak with it much.

How much softer should the shocks be? - I don't know. It is beginning to sound like you're getting the tail out at neutral throttle more than anything else, but diagnosis is severely hampered from a distance. I can't say much more without feeling and feeling out the car.

This is where the input of other enthusiasts (i.e. ones that don't race in straight lines) in your area will be very helpful.

On tires - don't count the Falken Azenis out of that list. I'm pretty sure that the Azenis develop more dry grip than the S-03's, though I do have to say that the S-03's are wonderful in the wet.

A small driving tip. A FWD car tuned to the edge will oversteer on neutral throttle. If it is tuned well, a little throttle pressure will tuck the tail right back in. Heavy braking will also cause understeer. However, getting from acceleration to braking is tough while keeping the tail where it belongs. In a FWD car, you may find that once you've commited to a curve at a certain speed, you're pretty stuck, and have to accelerate (even if its only lightly) through it regardless of what's on the other end.

For street use, I would advise against tuning that close to the edge.

You seriously need some seat time at the edge - which means find someplace, like an autocross, where you can safely explore that edge.

 

[BlueBallz]

Appreciate the advice, shorthand . I'm just starting,
but I will get it, eventually. BY GOD!