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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Before we start, let me say- Ive been doing a LOT of searching. :D

I have a 1997 Integra LS (see sig). Right now, its got 91k miles on it, but only 7k on the pistons and rings. It has been boosted before. About 4k miles of the new pistons was boost. The last owner had it boosted with a t3/t4 running 8psi. The new pistons are OEM. In a compression test, it ran 175 across the board, but the timing belt is a tooth off, which may affect those numbers. In a leak down it was right around 0% I believe. I just had the timing belt and water pump done (OEM Honda). It has an AEM SRI and Apexi N1 exhaust. It has an Eagle talon fuel pump, and I already have a resistor box should I want to run DSM injectors. It is currently OBD2, and HAS to stay that way. No matter what I do, it wont pass inspection as OBD1, so id have to use piggyback systems to tune in OBD2 (bleh). Im not looking to make insane power. Id just like a little "get up and go." Im sick of civic's giving me a run for my money. Id like to make somewhere in the 200whp range, but its not absolutley nessecary. Id be happy with a 180hp lsvtec setup. If im going turbo, id like to be over 220. I think my goals are pretty realistic. The suspension is all set up, and Im pretty pleased with the way the car looks. Time to build the motor.

That said, ive been back and forth the past few months, trying to decide, and id like to get some imput from you guys. I AM ON A BUDGET. Id like to spend under 2k for everything, but am very open to used parts (although it doesnt look like I have any other options with that budget). I need something that is VERY reliable. I use this car as a daily driver to get to school and work everyday.

That said, heres what ive come up with so far.

TURBO- By far the best way to make lots of power. Since my goals arent that high, this isnt nessecarily a good thing. Also one of the more expensive options, and has the potential to blow up my motor. I think i could peice my own kit together relativly inexpensively, but dyno time and tuning would be killer($), and since it has to stay OBD2 it would take even longer. Any way I go, however, im looking at a good about of Dyno time. Id probably run 6-8 psi with a t3/t4 turbo, with 440 injectors and an SAFC. (Im a noob to tuning, and relativly new to turbo). I use the shop Impo Performance (www.impoperformance.net) for all of my aftermarket needs, and they REALLY know what theyre doing. They would be tuning it. I would install the kit at my house, and disconnect the wastegate to drive it to their shop.

LSVTEC- This would put me right around my goals in terms of HP, and I really like the idea of being naturally aspirated. Ive heard of reliability issues with this, but to be honest, im not really concerned. The owner of Impo has a turboed lsvtec integra that he daily drives without ever having a problem, and they are doing my friends LSVTEC build. Until recently, i didnt know how involved this build was. Ive done a lot of reading on the LSVTEC stickies, and never realized about things like filling the oil galley. For some reason (stupid, i know), it never occured to me that I needed a new tranny. This is a big negative, because in the head and tranny alone, im looking at around $1000. The other thing the kind of pissed me off was that i JUST paid 400 to have my timing belt/water pump replaced, and would need to do them again with GSR parts for this build. Then I would probably also want to re-enforce my bottom end with hi comp pistons and such, which would definetly put me over the 2k limit. Just for reference, my friend is leaving his OEM pistons in, and the shop is doing the whole build for $900 (not including parts, obviously).

SUPERCHARGER
- I have to admit, this is something that I dont know much about. Ive seen Supercharger kits (JRSC) go for crazy cheap (~1500), and the SC would put me where I want to be as far as power is concerned. I dont know what reliability is like for this, but I would assume better than turbo. Ive seen people SC their B20's without a problem, but I know they cant be turboed because of their thin cylinder walls (on an OEM bottom end, I mean). From my understanding of it, superchargers only hit full boost at redline correct? Since the blower is run off a belt, as the engine speed increases, so does the SC RPM. So if youre running 6psi, youre only hitting that 6psi at redline, where as a turbo would be fully spooled up at 3-4k rpm. Im assuming (correct me if im wrong) that this has to do with why superchargers put less wear on the engine? I would also like SC for the same reason that we all do- no turbo lag. Instant boost.

As far as me as a mechanic goes, im pretty new. Ive never run into a problem working on a car, i just can never get the courage to tackle something so huge by myself. Im doing my first swap right now in my friends Eagle Talon, and was really suprised how easy it has been. Ive done basic shit (stereos, exhausts, shit like that) as well. I know I wouldnt want to do the LSVTEC, but i dont know if i can handle installing the supercharger or a turbo.

Ive also considered a B18C1 swap, but they all seem to be around $2500-2900 for just the motor and tranny. I could get my friend's (WVU97GS-R) entire wrecked GSR with a good motor in it for $1300, but the motor has 130k on it, and I would want to rebuild it. Ive never rebuilt a motor before. Id like to try, but dont want to fuck up something so expensive. (On that note, ive rebuild single cylinder 2 stroke engines before. Much simpler, I know- just throwing that out there.)

What would you guys recommend I do with a +-200whp goal and a $2000 budget?

Sorry for the long read. :eek:
 

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If you really want what you say, then i agree that a Supercharger is your best bet. Turbo'd LS/VTEC's can be crazy quick, but reliability can sometimes be an issue is your internals aren't built right. if you want decent power and more reliabilty for everyday driving, go supercharger.
 

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Hmm this is a tough one. I take it this $2k does not include typical bolt-ons like i/h/c/e? Keep in mind that if you have, say, a 2" collector, 2.25" cat and 2.36" exhaust (as most aftermarket parts are) they will choke off a turbo or S/C quite a bit, and even a good LS/VTEC setup will be constrained a bit by it. That's just a small size for that power goal, fill us in on your plans for this. Did you also factor in that you will need an upgraded clutch with the turbo/S/C route and probably also with the LS/VTEC setup?

IMO:

Turbo:
+ easiest way to get to higher power goals
- probably the least reliable with that kind of budget (tuning a turbo with SAFC? eek!), not as responsive

LS/VTEC:
+ best response and gas mileage
- also likely to be unreliable at that price (cost of labor plus getting the high C/R and big cams you need for that kind of power = $$$), the least torque

S/C:
+ cheapest, responsive and torquey
- almost surely the least hp... I've never been impressed with most non-VTEC B18 S/C setups... only a few more hp and lb/ft than my N/A setup, and don't think S/C's are easy to tune...


Have you thought about weight reduction?
My 152whp/129wtq/2350lbs in race trim = 15.4lbs/whp, 18.2lbs/wtq
To get the same power/weight (just from a peak #s standpoint for simplicity's sake) with stock ~2600lbs you will need 169whp and 143wtq. Some free/cheap weight reduction will get you a long way, and acceleration is only one of many benefits. Also keep in mind that a turbo or S/C setup will add considerable weight by themselves. By then your car could weigh closer to 2650 or even 2700lbs.

Something to consider with your $2k:
-Weight reduction... you'd be surprised how easy and painless it is to get rid of 100lbs without sacrificing much in the way of comfort.
-Short gears - B16 tranny with an LS 5th gear perhaps? Not very expensive and you'll have most of the labor done if you're doing the clutch anyway. Only reason I haven't done it is because a 51mph top speed with a B16/7k redline combo would absolutely suck balls in autocross. But it was fun as hell while I borrowed a B16 tranny for a couple weeks.
-After the weight reduction and tranny stuff you should still have $1200-1500. Crower cams only cost $350/pair. You can do without cam gears if you're on a budget, or get used ones for probably $125/pair. The S-AFC kinda sucks but it'll do the job for a simple N/A non-VTEC setup, plus you can dial it back to pass emissions (that's what I do and it works if you know what you're doing). Pair a used S-AFC (a Version I will suffice) with a B&M FPR and you're only out $275. At that point you'll still have $500-700 or so, with which you could either throw in some higher-C/R pistons or a B20Z block which swaps over directly (use your LS intake manifold). If you go the B20 route you can sell your LS block to recoup most of that investment since B20s cost barely more than LS blocks.

N/A non-VTEC tuning is definitely outside of the box thinking when it comes to Hondas, but it works if you're smart about it and realistic with your goals, plus weight reduction goes a long way. It may fall a little short of your goals, but it will also be far cheaper and more reliable than any of them and you really won't be that far off. I've been asked several dozen times now at autocrosses what the hell is under the hood, and it's pretty funny to see the look of disbelief when they hear "it's a non-VTEC with cams." They usually assume it has short gears, a turbo, an S/C, or some insane all-motor build and I'm just short-shifting.
 

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im kinda in the same corner as you but after reading what you want outta your car and all i would say supercharger or turbo i at one time was thinking LS vtec but now im going peace by peace for my turbo kit i think for your goals the supercharger would be great stay away from the vortech not that its bad but the jrsc is alot better and cheaper you could buy that a nice header and cams and be over 200hp there is a hole section on this site just for supercharging and team integra has alot of great post about this in the end i think you will just be happy with boost either way
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ive thought about a B20Z block. At one point I thought my motor was trashed (and to be perfectly honest, I was happy). I was excited to put in the B20Z. However, Im not comfortable putting in a block by myself. Ive never taken the head off an engine before. Tomorrow im going to go down to Impo and see what kind prices these will run me (turbo, SC, LSVTEC, B20, B18C, or CRVTEC)
 

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Sirfallsalot243 said:
Ive thought about a B20Z block. At one point I thought my motor was trashed (and to be perfectly honest, I was happy). I was excited to put in the B20Z. However, Im not comfortable putting in a block by myself. Ive never taken the head off an engine before. Tomorrow im going to go down to Impo and see what kind prices these will run me (turbo, SC, LSVTEC, B20, B18C, or CRVTEC)
If I were you, I would buy the $1300 GSR and build the motor. Don't sell yourself short - you can build a motor and it is much easier when it is out of the car. I'm a college student and I had no experience with engines before I got my integra, other than changing the oil and cleaning the throttle body. But just this week, I dropped my transmission, took it apart, fixed it, and put it back in the car with nothing but a Helms manual. B18s are very easy to work on as long as you have all the required tools. Most o the time, you don't need anything that fancy. You can take the motor to a machine shop to do stuff that you can't, like hone the cylinder walls.

It's also good to build the GSR motor because you won't be without a car when you do. Just hone the cylinders, replace the seals, gaskets, and belts, replace the synchronizers, sleeves, and bearings in the transmission, throw in an LSD, and put some cams in the head.
 

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Sirfallsalot243 said:
Ive thought about a B20Z block. At one point I thought my motor was trashed (and to be perfectly honest, I was happy). I was excited to put in the B20Z. However, Im not comfortable putting in a block by myself. Ive never taken the head off an engine before. Tomorrow im going to go down to Impo and see what kind prices these will run me (turbo, SC, LSVTEC, B20, B18C, or CRVTEC)
By "block" I meant longblock, which includes the head.
 

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White98LS said:
By "block" I meant longblock, which includes the head.
Hey! your back..... i havent seen any comments from you for awhile. As for the question, im not too wise in knowledge but I think im going to go SC in the long run. IMO i would go SC but in the end it's up to u man....b/c your driving it
 

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If you want boost, go turbo. A SC for the LS is boring.

Otherwise, its really an open floor for what you want to do. Go out and see if you can find a few people with differnt setups and drive their cars. Hopefully that will make up your mind.
 

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female four said:
If you want boost, go turbo. A SC for the LS is boring.
Agreed. Most JRSC LS setups I see are making 150-160whp and 130-140wtq. Woohoo. You can get that easily with a much simpler and more reliable all-motor LS or B20.

Oh yeah and I was in Costa Rica for a week so I didn't exactly get around to SHO... :)
 

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White98LS said:
Agreed. Most JRSC LS setups I see are making 150-160whp and 130-140wtq. Woohoo. You can get that easily with a much simpler and more reliable all-motor LS or B20.

Oh yeah and I was in Costa Rica for a week so I didn't exactly get around to SHO... :)
Holy Crap!!!! only 150-60whp???? man that is defintly not worth it yet for te money you spend on SC or Turbo you could get those numbers.
 

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Yoshimitshu said:
Holy Crap!!!! only 150-60whp???? man that is defintly not worth it yet for te money you spend on SC or Turbo you could get those numbers.
Na it is a litlle higher. A guy I used to know in NY had a JRSC on his LS and he was putting down 173whp and 144wtq. That was with the whole SC package and bolt-ons. I think he was running high 14's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Yeah, i would be dissapointed with a boosted motor only running 160whp.

As for the B20Z, why would I buy the whole long block? Aside from not ever swapping a head before, it doesnt make sense to buy the head too, when the LS and B20 share the same exact head.

Maybe ill keep an eye out for a blown gsr motor, and buy it for like 500 or so. Then with hi comp pistons and skunk 2 cams, ill be about 1400 into it, and can spend the rest on the rest of the swap (tranny, axles, wiring, ecu). I wish i could find one at a local junkyard. All the integras locally are picked over (even the LS's).

I cant decide. Right now i have $1100 saved, and make about $250 a week for spending (the rest is bills). To be honest, id love to rebuild a motor that wouldnt matter if I messed it up or not. Like if my LS motor was blown, id swap it out and rebuild it. Just for fun, and to learn. But im afraid to tackle a task like that when I actually NEED the motor.
 

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Sirfallsalot243 said:
Yeah, i would be dissapointed with a boosted motor only running 160whp.

As for the B20Z, why would I buy the whole long block? Aside from not ever swapping a head before, it doesnt make sense to buy the head too, when the LS and B20 share the same exact head.

Maybe ill keep an eye out for a blown gsr motor, and buy it for like 500 or so. Then with hi comp pistons and skunk 2 cams, ill be about 1400 into it, and can spend the rest on the rest of the swap (tranny, axles, wiring, ecu). I wish i could find one at a local junkyard. All the integras locally are picked over (even the LS's).

I cant decide. Right now i have $1100 saved, and make about $250 a week for spending (the rest is bills). To be honest, id love to rebuild a motor that wouldnt matter if I messed it up or not. Like if my LS motor was blown, id swap it out and rebuild it. Just for fun, and to learn. But im afraid to tackle a task like that when I actually NEED the motor.
Doesn't the 99-01 have a different head from the 96-98?
 

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2camvtec said:
Na it is a litlle higher. A guy I used to know in NY had a JRSC on his LS and he was putting down 173whp and 144wtq. That was with the whole SC package and bolt-ons. I think he was running high 14's.
That's really sad. That's what mine runs. Which is exactly why I suggested the N/A LS or B20 with some weight reduction and maybe some shorter gears. Very underrated setup until people see it in action.
 

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Sirfallsalot243 said:
As for the B20Z, why would I buy the whole long block? Aside from not ever swapping a head before, it doesnt make sense to buy the head too, when the LS and B20 share the same exact head.
You'd buy the whole longblock because:
1. That's how most are sold
2. Barely costs more than a shortblock (just the block itself)
3. You don't have to swap the head (which also means you don't need to buy a headgasket, possibly mill the head, etc.)
4. You can sell your complete LS engine instead of just the shortblock
 

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flyingtoaster said:
Doesn't the 99-01 have a different head from the 96-98?
Nope, they are the same.
 

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Since you have to stick with OBD-2 have you considered putting together a turbo and just running an FMU? Less expensive and will allow you to pass emissions and you should be about to reach around 200-220whp.
 
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