[Saitoh]

Every post I've read here says that the vortech produces virtually no boost until 6000 RPM, but every Dyno chart I've seen shows the vortech adding 20 horsepower at 3,000 RPM where the Jackson only adds 10 HP. The HP curve is virtually straight from there to 277 on the vortech.
Does anybody actually have any dyno charts to dispute this? And I have never seen a turbo that can outrun the vortech either. If you have any links with info about this, I would really appreciate it. I'm saving up for a vortech cause it looks like the best performer by a long shot. I'd rather not waste the money if that's not the case.

 

[TheX-Man]

http://www.clubsi.com/dyno_vortech_1.shtml thats vortecs

http://www.clubsi.com/dyno_jrsc_2.shtml thats jackson's

I think both are the company

Here are actual dynos from people.

http://www.clubsi.com/dyno_99simass_1.shtml

http://www.clubsi.com/dyno_nined9civicsir_1.shtml

Now let compare....(using the people's dyno not the manufactor dyno)
________JRSC___________Vortec
2500____~50hp 100lb ft___~35hp 75lb ft

3000____~62hp 105lb ft___~40hp 80lb ft

3500____~80hp 112lb ft___~50hp 90lb ft

4000____~95hp 115lb ft___~70hp 100lb ft

4500____~110hp 117lb ft__~80hp 105lb ft

5000____~123hp 120lb ft__~90hp 105lb ft

5500____~135hp 130lb ft__~120hp 125lb ft

OK you know what im getting tired of looking and typing so you can look for yourself. Basically after all of that the vortec jumps especially in vtec. But with these lower rpms you see the difference. I didn't use the manufactors dynos b/c they're normally increased. Look at the vortec si though!!!!! that thing is steep as hell!!!! So if you want that type of peaky power... turbo is much better at making it, cheaper, and better results. JRSC is a great daily driver. 100lb ft at 2500!!! and when the car normally has 111(at the flywheel) @ 6800(i think) So there you have it you can also check out the other dynoes.. you'll notice i put this one against the lowest performing vortec(hehe) but still vortec isn't worth the money, turbo or jrsc is the only way(or nos).


http://www.clubsi.com/dyno.shtml

 

[Gvtec]

This is my GSR @ 8lb JRSC on top of a GSR @ 7lb Vortech. Both engines are in medium state of tune. As you can see, the JRSC @ 8lb creats more power over the entire RPM band. The only time the Vortech will create more peek power is with the high boost kit that pumps up manifold pressure to 15lb.

This is the same overlay, with my 6lb JRSC in green. The JRSC makes more power until 6,000 RPM.

Vortech is all PEEK power.

 

[neouser]

This is my GSR @ 8lb JRSC on top of a GSR @ 7lb Vortech. Both engines are in medium state of tune. As you can see, the JRSC @ 8lb creats more power over the entire RPM band. The only time the Vortech will create more peek power is with the high boost kit that pumps up manifold pressure to 15lb.

This is the same overlay, with my 6lb JRSC in green. The JRSC makes more power until 6,000 RPM.

Vortech is all PEEK power.

Thank you. Made my point without having me break my promise that I would not provide any useful information here.

Note that the Vortech only makes useable power AFTER 5252 rpm, the same crossover in the torque/hp formula...

 

[TheX-Man]

neo,

What do you mean your promise not to provide any useful info here? And where your new home? I think I've been there, not sure though.

 

[TheX-Man]

gvtec what are your mods?

 

[Gvtec]

JRSC @ 8lb
RC 440cc
EFI PMS
DC 4-2-1
APEX'i RS exhaust
filter on a stick

This was in a overly rich state of tune, as i've gained about 8 more whp thru leaning the fuel curve. It's not a very agressive state of tune, as I believe I could net +15whp with more timing and dyno tuning.

 

[95nBlown]

JRSC @ 8lb
RC 440cc
EFI PMS
DC 4-2-1
APEX'i RS exhaust
filter on a stick

This was in a overly rich state of tune, as i've gained about 8 more whp thru leaning the fuel curve. It's not a very agressive state of tune, as I believe I could net +15whp with more timing and dyno tuning.

That is my Vortech dyno that is being refered to in the last couple of posts. My mods as compared to Gvtec:

Vortech @ 7lbs (stock kit) vs JRSC @ 8lbs (upgrade)
RC 310cc (came w/ kit) vs RC 440cc (upgrade)
Stock ECU (no mods) vs EFI PMS (upgrade for tuning)
DC 4-2-1 vs DC 4-2-1 (one thing the same)
Stock exhaust vs APEX'i RS exhaust (upgrade)
Filter on blower assembly vs filter on a stick (same more or less)

Not quite the same is it????? Give the Vortech the same mods and tuning tools, then we can see better.

 

[TheX-Man]

lol this is gettin funny dude.. I'm about to quit. I've been following this guy around for like 3 or 4 different boards. On your H-T post you said stock... "Baseline with Vortech blower/ B18C1 GSR, Timing at 16 degrees, Stock Cams, Stock ignition, Stock Exaust, Zex Plugs, Stock ECU, and no major tuning".... when did dc come from the factory... Just playin. So OK well if you notice the hp an torque throughout the rpms. That's the key to jrsc, jrsc isn't meant to be a straight drag racer or anything. If the 1/4 was all jrsc'ed people worried about I'm sure they would have gotten turbo... better 1/4 and better topend i.e. hwy racing.

OK i will stop following you around... I have to go to work soon.

 

[95nBlown]

lol this is gettin funny dude.. I'm about to quit. I've been following this guy around for like 3 or 4 different boards. On your H-T post you said stock... "Baseline with Vortech blower/ B18C1 GSR, Timing at 16 degrees, Stock Cams, Stock ignition, Stock Exaust, Zex Plugs, Stock ECU, and no major tuning".... when did dc come from the factory... Just playin. So OK well if you notice the hp an torque throughout the rpms. That's the key to jrsc, jrsc isn't meant to be a straight drag racer or anything. If the 1/4 was all jrsc'ed people worried about I'm sure they would have gotten turbo... better 1/4 and better topend i.e. hwy racing.

OK i will stop following you around... I have to go to work soon.

I hear you... LOL

I agree the JRSC is a strong runner. It is just not what I wanted. I know that the Vortech is very new to the Integra crowd and pretty new the the Si crowd. I believe that everyone should have as much info as possible from ALL of us. I don't come to bash the other forms of FI, I respect them all. It is all about the driver and his/her car and how they want to drive...... And also trying to get people to compare, relatively, the same type of mods on vehicles. That seems to be hard to do.....:gundam1:

 

[neouser]

That is my Vortech dyno that is being refered to in the last couple of posts. My mods as compared to Gvtec:

Vortech @ 7lbs (stock kit) vs JRSC @ 8lbs (upgrade)
RC 310cc (came w/ kit) vs RC 440cc (upgrade)
Stock ECU (no mods) vs EFI PMS (upgrade for tuning)
DC 4-2-1 vs DC 4-2-1 (one thing the same)
Stock exhaust vs APEX'i RS exhaust (upgrade)
Filter on blower assembly vs filter on a stick (same more or less)

Not quite the same is it????? Give the Vortech the same mods and tuning tools, then we can see better.

Put the same mods on the Vortech and you'll still see the JRSC making more low end power. Fact of the matter is that centrifugal compressors make cube root of boost at half the rpm. (In other words, 9 psi at 7000 rpm would yield 3 psi at 3500 rpm) Even if you were to heavily modify your Vortech supercharged GSR, your power curve would NOT change. That's just the inherent nature of your blower. The turbo would begin boost earlier and make more power throughout the entire powerband without parasitic crank draw that is inherent of the supercharger. Fact of the matter is, the centrifuge is just mismatched to a small motor. I like studying all forms of boost too and I like to get very technical.

 

[95nBlown]

Put the same mods on the Vortech and you'll still see the JRSC making more low end power. Fact of the matter is that centrifugal compressors make cube root of boost at half the rpm. (In other words, 9 psi at 7000 rpm would yield 3 psi at 3500 rpm) Even if you were to heavily modify your Vortech supercharged GSR, your power curve would NOT change. That's just the inherent nature of your blower. The turbo would begin boost earlier and make more power throughout the entire powerband without parasitic crank draw that is inherent of the supercharger. Fact of the matter is, the centrifuge is just mismatched to a small motor. I like studying all forms of boost too and I like to get very technical.

Agreed. The JRSC will always make more torque in the low to mid range, no doubt, that is by design. I want the power in the mid to high range, that is where the Vortech makes its power, by design. At the top end, the Vortech will hang w/ the turbos, and both will leave the JRSC in their rearviews, with all parameters being the same.

 

[Gvtec]

Keep in mind, you're also running 16 degrees static advance. You are not retarding any timing, with regards to manifold pressure. This means you are igniting the fuel earlier and are making more cylinder pressure; this makes more power, as it also makes your engine more prone to knock.

I'm retatrding my timing to 20 degrees BTDC, at full boost. Without any timing removed, the stock ECU kicks it up to 32~36 BTDC. If I were to add another 10 degrees advance, I'd make that much more power, but that's not a great way to operate an engine. You're right, it isn't quite the same. I would be willing to bet... if you were to retard your timing to a conservative 10 degrees BTDC, you wouldn't break 200whp.

 

[neouser]

At the top end, the Vortech will hang w/ the turbos, and both will leave the JRSC in their rearviews, with all parameters being the same.

That's the whole point though. It's not that the JRSC doesn't make top end power. It just doesn't make as much as the Vortech. Then again, does it really matter? Considering that the GSR redlines at about 8000 rpm, that means that you've got a powerband of 3000 rpm. (Your power curve doesn't really start ramping up until 5200 rpm) Even overlayed with the JRSC at 6 psi, you don't make more power than the Eaton blower until 6000 rpm. That's 2000 rpm advantage at 7 psi against a 6 psi JRSC kit. Think about that carefully. You make 20 hp more at 7000 rpm and about 38 hp at 8000 rpm, right when you shift. And you're making 1 psi of boost more than the JRSC for that advantage...

 

[Gvtec]

That's 2000 rpm advantage at 7 psi against a 6 psi JRSC kit. Think about that carefully. You make 20 hp more at 7000 rpm and about 38 hp at 8000 rpm, right when you shift.

Where did you lurn your atritmatic?

The 7PSI Vortech peeks 218.50 @ 8k and about 195 whp @ 7k. Ontop of my 6 PSI JRSC, that's +19.5 whp @ 8k and about +10 whp @ 7k. Where did you get 38 whp?

 

[95nBlown]

That's the whole point though. It's not that the JRSC doesn't make top end power. It just doesn't make as much as the Vortech. Then again, does it really matter? Considering that the GSR redlines at about 8000 rpm, that means that you've got a powerband of 3000 rpm. (Your power curve doesn't really start ramping up until 5200 rpm) Even overlayed with the JRSC at 6 psi, you don't make more power than the Eaton blower until 6000 rpm. That's 2000 rpm advantage at 7 psi against a 6 psi JRSC kit. Think about that carefully. You make 20 hp more at 7000 rpm and about 38 hp at 8000 rpm, right when you shift. And you're making 1 psi of boost more than the JRSC for that advantage...

That is my point. That is where I want my power band, in VTEC.

 

[TheX-Man]

Fact of the matter is that centrifugal compressors make cube root of boost at half the rpm. (In other words, 9 psi at 7000 rpm would yield 3 psi at 3500 rpm)

Thank you for that... I was trying to remember what you said about that from before sho went down... In the other post where i edited and had deleted stuff from my paragraph is b/c i phrased that wrong right there.

look 95nblown... OUR point is, if you like that powerband so much, turbo/nos is a much better approach, and will yeild better results then a vortec.

 

[neouser]

That is my point. That is where I want my power band, in VTEC.

If I recall correctly, you drive a Vortech supercharged GSR. VTEC kicks in at 4400 rpm. That means you still have 1600 of wasted rpm. Typically, supercharged cars see a gain when you lower the VTEC crossover. I think someone had a chart from Dynospot for a Vortech Civic Si with it's VTEC crossover dropped and even Jackson Racing's website has one for a supercharged Prelude with lowred VTEC point. You can try to justify your purchase of the Vortech all you like, however, the truth remains. It's a poor choice of boost for small displacement motors. I'd rather start making more power at 4000 rpm than have to wait until 6000.

 

[neouser]

Where did you lurn your atritmatic?

The 7PSI Vortech peeks 218.50 @ 8k and about 195 whp @ 7k. Ontop of my 6 PSI JRSC, that's +19.5 whp @ 8k and about +10 whp @ 7k. Where did you get 38 whp?

Check it out, the green shade is your JRSC at 6 psi, right? And the blue line is the Vortech, right?

It looks like you're making right about 180 whp at 7000 rpm while he's almost making 200. Well, actually, you're right, maybe 195. That's about 15 whp difference. At 8000 rpm, it looks like you're making just a hair over 190 whp. Let's say 195. He's putting out a max of 218 before 8000 rpm. I would give it a little bit more by 8000. That's at least 25+ whp difference. It's not my arithmetic. It's my careless reading of the dyno plot. Nevertheless, the gap is neither as big as I made it out to be not as small as your adjustment...

 

[95nBlown]

If I recall correctly, you drive a Vortech supercharged GSR. VTEC kicks in at 4400 rpm. That means you still have 1600 of wasted rpm. Typically, supercharged cars see a gain when you lower the VTEC crossover. I think someone had a chart from Dynospot for a Vortech Civic Si with it's VTEC crossover dropped and even Jackson Racing's website has one for a supercharged Prelude with lowred VTEC point. You can try to justify your purchase of the Vortech all you like, however, the truth remains. It's a poor choice of boost for small displacement motors. I'd rather start making more power at 4000 rpm than have to wait until 6000.

Dynamic Autosports in CA did a Vortech GSR. They did lower the VTEC point and that is where they say most of their gains. With my current setup, if I could lower the VTEC point some, I would, but I can't.